The Church orders Wives to Submit to their Husbands

[denuseri]

One may wish to keep in mind that the religion of christianity in and of itself isnt the original source for the idea of female submission.

Though bashing people for not believeing as one does, does seem to be a common theme through history, and bashing the church, the christian church in paticular seems to be in vogue nowdays.

Dualistic paradoxical wonders of the bible aside...one may wish to keep in mind that not everything being said by the church nor the collection of works they use as cannon is allways wrong for everyone.

If it was they wouldnt have so many followers now would they.

The old testement btw is superseeded by the new testement for many chirstians, and the two laws that Jesus said about having no other gods and loving one's nieghbor as oneself are often looked upon as the only nessesities when you get down too it, becuase with them you dont need to go into any of the others.

The idea of there being a dominance heirarchy relationship dynamic between man and woman is some thing we have brought with us long before the advent of written history or monotheism for that matter.

So its no wonder to me that it was incorperated into the dogma of most of the worlds religions in one way or another once people started writing things down.

And since its probabely biologically hard wired into us somehow to one degree or another, much like most of our other commonalities of behavioral conditions such as a need for spirituality, one shouldnt be so surprised that there are people out there still saying that for a marriage to really work that hierarchy should still be followed.

Further more, one may also wish to keep in mind that white, eruocentric ideals of cultural norms recently developed (historically speaking in the past 100 years) and allowed to dominant ones capitalistic society expoused by the west such as equality in general especially in the form of feminisim etc etc, are not allways shared by the rest of the world as being really nessesary or even desirerable, even by the women of those places you may think your "liberating" by pushing your culture on theirs.

And please don't bother to call us all ignorant or kept in the dark against our will eaither, such derogatory stereotyping isnt going to convience us.

Just becuase we choose to reject your eurocentric ways, especially after having tried a taste of some of them for ouselves and having seen what its brought you in the end doesnt mean we are in favor of them or wrong becuase we choose not to follow them in our own lives or wish to see them forced upon our culture by yours.

[Thorne]

Though bashing people for not believeing as one does, does seem to be a common theme through history, and bashing the church, the christian church in paticular seems to be in vogue nowdays.

I don't believe that bashing the church, any church, should be done simply because it's fashionable! It should be done, however, to point out the hypocrisy and injustice which has shown itself to be so ingrained in so many different religious groups. A church which endangers millions of people because of archaic ideas of morality should not be given a free pass. They should be held accountable.

Dualistic paradoxical wonders of the bible aside...one may wish to keep in mind that not everything being said by the church nor the collection of works they use as cannon is allways wrong for everyone.

Absolutely. And the flip side is that it's not always right for everyone, either.

If it was they wouldnt have so many followers now would they.

How many followers really know what they are following, though. The large majority of religious adherents remain within the religion they were born into, and many have little or no understanding of what that religion truly means. I was raised Catholic, yet I've learned more about the Bible, both good and bad, since turning away from religion than I ever learned in all those years of religious teaching. I have a lot of respect for those who have turned away from their "birth religion", even when they turn to something else, because it generally means they have thought about what they are doing, rather than just accepting what they are told. (Not always, though: I have some relatives who switched from one religion to another just because they preferred one set of rituals over another.) I can even respect someone who, after turning away from his birth religion and studying others, returned to his birth religion, because it met his own belief system better. But someone who remains Christian, or Baptist, or Mormon, or Muslim simply because they were born into that religion, without really understanding what the real meaning of that religion is, are simply followers, not necessarily worthy of respect.

The old testement btw is superseeded by the new testement for many chirstians, and the two laws that Jesus said about having no other gods and loving one's nieghbor as oneself are often looked upon as the only nessesities when you get down too it, becuase with them you dont need to go into any of the others.

And there are other Christians who take the entire Bible as the literal word of God, to be followed resolutely without variance. (Except, of course, where it is inconvenient for them to do so.)

Just becuase we choose to reject your eurocentric ways, especially after having tried a taste of some of them for ouselves and having seen what its brought you in the end doesnt mean we are in favor of them or wrong becuase we choose not to follow them in our own lives or wish to see them forced upon our culture by yours.

I agree with you completely here. You have the right to choose. We should not force our culture on anyone else, just as they should not force their culture on us.

But how many cultures actually give the women that choice? How many women submit to their husbands (or to men in general) not because it's what they want, but because it's what they've been told, repeatedly since they were children? How many such women are even aware that they do not have to submit?

Yes, given the choice some will submit. That is their right. But to spend years telling young girls that it is evil for them to want freedom, how many will choose that freedom even when it is offered?

[denuseri]

All of us make choices. Just as we have each and every day of human history. We do raise our own children you know.

We don't need to be able to vote in governement to do it eaither. Or be told by you that we are being brainwashed or stupid becuase we may not want to embrace what your selling.

Like I said before, you presume much to think that we all choose from ignorance. Or than we need you to push your culture upon ours and bring us your version of so called "freedom" so that we can see the so called error of our ways.

[Thorne]

All of us make choices. Just as we have each and every day of human history. We do raise our own children you know.

We don't need to be able to vote in governement to do it eaither. Or be told by you that we are being brainwashed or stupid becuase we may not want to embrace what your selling.

Like I said before, you presume much to think that we all choose from ignorance. Or than we need you to push your culture upon ours and bring us your version of so called "freedom" so that we can see the so called error of our ways.

Yes, we all raise our own children. Some of us raise them to think for themselves. Others raise them to think just the way they themselves think. I don't advocate forcing anything upon parents, but I have to ask, which is better?

I don't claim that anyone is stupid just because of what they believe. Brainwashed? Possibly, but not necessarily. But I'm not selling anything. Just asking questions and, when appropriate, pointing out contradictions.

Ignorance is not necessarily any person's fault. It's simply a lack of knowledge. I know some things about a lot of topics, but there are some in which I admit profound ignorance. But given the opportunity, ignorance can be remedied. I believe in giving people that opportunity. I believe everyone should have the opportunity, if he or she wishes, to study religious texts from around the world, whether it be the Bible, or the Quran, or the Bhagvad Gita, or any of the thousands of other scriptures. They should also be allowed to study those books and topics which might contradict those religious texts. How many of those religions have banned books which run counter to their beliefs?

And I don't claim that your ways are in error, either. They may be perfectly suited to your culture, your lifestyle. I have no quarrel with that. All I'm saying is that you cannot be sure if you don't have the freedom to examine other cultures and lifestyles. I don't want to force anyone to embrace any particular culture. I just believe they should have the opportunity to make an educated choice. It's been my experience that most fundamentalist religions, especially, do not permit that opportunity. They do not give their followers that choice.

[thir]

Yes, we all raise our own children. Some of us raise them to think for themselves. Others raise them to think just the way they themselves think. I don't advocate forcing anything upon parents, but I have to ask, which is better?

This question in actually worth a thread in itself. It is complicated.