Fate

[xspy4u]

I love this topic. I think the answer is simpler than we allow and the answer is 3 (stay with me my sanity will become evident in a minute.) We know that the number three has powerful implications in our species. Our brains are wired to remember things in three's ( why we say bad things happen in three's). We know that in many religous belief system things are also presented in three's. We know that a woman(1) and a man(2) result in a baby (3).

So the answer to "destiny" and "freewill" is most likely explained in the same manner. Think of a human's existance and relationship with god(s) in the same terms as parents and child.

Born of the parents the child's life is the result of three different conditions; determination, divine guidance, and randomness.

A child is born with certain "things" which will ultimately "determine" other things. In this way there are aspects of their life that are predetermined at birth.

Like a child grows partially through the guidance of his parent(s) so too is there a divine guidance that leads each of us to certain choices and paths.

And third, there is the apparent randomness of events both created and experienced that will provide unique opportunities to make choices that ultimately lead us to a place..and those choices are many, although not infinite as some are removed by conditions one and two.

[Thorne]

So the answer to "destiny" and "freewill" is most likely explained in the same manner. Think of a human's existance and relationship with god(s) in the same terms as parents and child.

And what of us who have no gods to have relationships with? Are we non-human?

Born of the parents the child's life is the result of three different conditions; determination, divine guidance, and randomness.

Substitute parental/familial guidance for 'divine guidance' and I'm with you here.

A child is born with certain "things" which will ultimately "determine" other things. In this way there are aspects of their life that are predetermined at birth.

A bit tricky, here. Children are born with certain physical, emotional and mental abilities or disabilities which will profoundly affect their lives, yes, but the social acceptance or rejection of those abilities and disabilities will play a far greater role. I have an uncle who was born with muscular dystrophy who was not allowed to go to public school because of his handicap. Today society sees children like this as challenges to be integrated into our society rather than as pariahs to be hidden away. Nothing is predestined.

Like a child grows partially through the guidance of his parent(s) so too is there a divine guidance that leads each of us to certain choices and paths.

I was a child once and I have raised two children and have never seen any evidence of "divine guidance".

And third, there is the apparent randomness of events both created and experienced that will provide unique opportunities to make choices that ultimately lead us to a place..and those choices are many, although not infinite as some are removed by conditions one and two.

This is the one that so many people fear, because this one points to the almost complete lack of control we really have over our lives. And these random events are the ones that will generally bring out either the best or the worst in people. But they don't always have to be surprises. If you live near the ocean you have to be aware that you could get smacked pretty good by a hurricane. If you prepare for it you can limit some of the randomness and get through it. This will help you get through the random event with the least amount of problems. Moving away from the ocean makes it even better. In either event, though, preparation gives you at least some control over a random event.

[xspy4u]

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]And what of us who have no gods to have relationships with? Are we non-human?

Not any less human than someone who lacks a relationship with their parents.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]Substitute parental/familial guidance for 'divine guidance' and I'm with you here

Umm no can do, there are greater things than the pedictability of men's egos.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]A bit tricky, here. Children are born with certain physical, emotional and mental abilities or disabilities which will profoundly affect their lives, yes, but the social acceptance or rejection of those abilities and disabilities will play a far greater role. I have an uncle who was born with muscular dystrophy who was not allowed to go to public school because of his handicap. Today society sees children like this as challenges to be integrated into our society rather than as pariahs to be hidden away. Nothing is predestined..

I disagree as I do not subscribe to tabla rosa. Many things are beyond an individual's ability to achieve - so we are at least "pre-destined" to not be certain things. And the one thing we know about this world...there is no such thing as "always" and "never."


[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]I was a child once and I have raised two children and have never seen any evidence of "divine guidance".

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. "love for our children" may be that divine guidance you have overlooked. I think that it is the "human" qualities that we attempt to apply to the "divine" is the core reason why people stop looking.

[QUOTE=Thorne;875438]This is the one that so many people fear, because this one points to the almost complete lack of control we really have over our lives. And these random events are the ones that will generally bring out either the best or the worst in people. But they don't always have to be surprises. If you live near the ocean you have to be aware that you could get smacked pretty good by a hurricane. If you prepare for it you can limit some of the randomness and get through it. This will help you get through the random event with the least amount of problems. Moving away from the ocean makes it even better. In either event, though, preparation gives you at least some control over a random event.[

Hurricanes are the factor of water temperature and wind conditions and follow seasonal cycles...but I get your point and would add that "apparent randomness" is simply our inability to see the connectivity of all things

[Thorne]

Not any less human than someone who lacks a relationship with their parents.

I've known a few people who have not had a relationship with their parents. They are perfectly normal people. Their parents were abusive, bad people. They walked out and never looked back. And they are just as human as anyone else.

I disagree as I do not subscribe to tabla rosa. Many things are beyond an individual's ability to achieve - so we are at least "pre-destined" to not be certain things. And the one thing we know about this world...there is no such thing as "always" and "never."

I agree with that last line, at least. But no one is predestined either to be something or to NOT be something. We may be limited by our lack of ability, unless we can find a way around that lack. We see people all the time overcoming limitations which others thought insurmountable. People losing their legs, yet able to strap on prostheses and run races! That uncle I mentioned was "predestined" never to walk, to die before he was 20, to be a constant burden to his family. Yet he learned to walk, he is now in his mid-60's, he held a job and, while sometimes being a burden, has also sometimes been a joy to his family. All in spite of his "destiny".

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. "love for our children" may be that divine guidance you have overlooked. I think that it is the "human" qualities that we attempt to apply to the "divine" is the core reason why people stop looking.

Love for our children is a genetic imperative, a way to insure the survival of our species. And it is faith and dogma that cause people to stop looking for answers. When you declare something to be the work of God, there's no reason to search for another cause.