College & High School Shootings: What Now

[TomOfSweden]

This discussion again. It's bound to be heated so I'm going to make some popcorn and lean back.

[Ozme52]

This discussion again. It's bound to be heated so I'm going to make some popcorn and lean back.

I knew in my heart you would bow out of the automatic v. stick-shift argument. No heart Tom?

Osme: Please tell me, are cars designed to kill, or do they have another purpose?

Actually... laffin... the original purpose and design of wheeled vehicles is to deliver a warrior and arms to the fight (or hunt) and to provide an advantage in speed and power. Mobility.

Much later, a secondary purpose and design was introduced to carry goods to and from market.

Personal transportation was a far distant third... primarily reserved for the gentry and upper classes (who also were often the only ones permitted to own weapons.)

[Ozme52]

To me, it's obvious: if what he did was legal then the laws are wrong. Change them.

We have tried for years to change gun laws in the United States the big probelm we have is the NRA the National Rifle Association has so much power as lobbiests here that no major changes ever make it through congress, they are killed or burned in congress and get nowhere amknig chages is not the issue getting them passed and having a President sign them is the issue 99% of gun law chahges never go anywhere, they get introduced into congress and then just die there or get vetoed with not enough votes to overide a veto

We? Speak for yourself. Let's be real clear. Gun lobby or no... if the clear majority of people were for gun control it would pass. These laws are introduced riht after such incidents and get as far as they do because the liberal press is in favor of them. So the legislators get a lot of publicity for doing so. But the people? I doubt it.

For some it's about liberty. For some it's about the right to protect ourselves as, world-wide, criminals don't have a problem getting guns if they want them, and for some, it's about (perhaps naively) the ability to protect ourselves from an overbearing government. That's what this 'country' did 250 years ago.

The latter is something that is virtually 'bred' into my bones even though I am a first generation 'born in the USA american' on both sides of my family. All too many of us were slaughtered in Nazi death camps. The words 'never again' though never specifically uttered by my father were taught to me in crystal clear language.

A lot of my otherwise liberal acquaintances actually take note of what happened during the era of Viet Nam war protesting... what the US government did to impose "order" on their right to free speech... including a number of deaths... (admittedly few... but none-the-less...) and those liberal friends of mine aren't all that adamently for gun control.

[mkemse]

We? Speak for yourself. Let's be real clear. Gun lobby or no... if the clear majority of people were for gun control it would pass. These laws are introduced riht after such incidents and get as far as they do because the liberal press is in favor of them. So the legislators get a lot of publicity for doing so. But the people? I doubt it.

For some it's about liberty. For some it's about the right to protect ourselves as, world-wide, criminals don't have a problem getting guns if they want them, and for some, it's about (perhaps naively) the ability to protect ourselves from an overbearing government. That's what this 'country' did 250 years ago.

The latter is something that is virtually 'bred' into my bones even though I am a first generation 'born in the USA american' on both sides of my family. All too many of us were slaughtered in Nazi death camps. The words 'never again' though never specifically uttered by my father were taught to me in crystal clear language.

A lot of my otherwise liberal acquaintances actually take note of what happened during the era of Viet Nam war protesting... what the US government did to impose "order" on their right to free speech... including a number of deaths... (admittedly few... but none-the-less...) and those liberal friends of mine aren't all that adamently for gun control.

My "ME" refers to the countless efforts made in congress to pass tighter gun control laws, what Americans need to do is elect Congressmen and Women n And Representtives that will not be beholden to THE NRA, only congress can pass these laws, they are made up of people at WE as citizien elec, if you want your Senator or Represenative to vote against the NRA elected and get into officethose who will fight the NRA lobbiests is what my intent was in say that, we as american decide through election who serves in Wasigngton, wehave a MAJOR Election comingi n November elect those that will support stronger gun laws, all we can do as citizens is elect our officials we do not makethe laws themselves we simply elect thsoe who can and can ass them and pass them all by a wide enough margin that that they are NOT veto proof

[TomOfSweden]

I knew in my heart you would bow out of the automatic v. stick-shift argument. No heart Tom?

I don't think has to do with heart. For me it's simply down to reading statistics and manipulating government policies to minimise violent crime and murder. As long as it's done within a democratic framework, I don't really care how it is achieved.

It's a more complicated issue than just banning guns. But it's painfully obvious that USA's policy it has had sucks monkey balls as far as violent crime and murder is concerned. If I'd be American, (or rather US citizen, WTF do you guys call yourself?)

I'd personally demand political changes to be made to fix the problem, but who cares what I think here in Sweden

There are many roots of the problem and I do think they have been identified. The solutions go something like this:

* Decrease poverty.
* Decrease alienation of the poor.
* Lessen the availability of guns.

I'm convinced of that acting on any of those will lessen the problem. The two first are related, but giving convicted criminals the right to vote would be a good first step. Having affordable and good state sponsored schools on all levels is another one of those fairly cheap ways to raise the poor out of hopelessness. Removing the guns is of course by far the cheapest solution, but not the least complicated and is a very very long term solution.

But USA is very rich which no doubt is the result of having such little aid to the poor. Being poor in USA only sucks slightly less than being poor in the jungles of Africa. They have plenty of reasons to work hard as hell. And they do and USA is rich, so there is obviously a positive pay off.

The important thing to reconcile is that USA has the high-school shootings they do and the high prevalence of murder because that is what the voters have chosen. US voters want this society. They obviously think the heightened chance of getting their kids mowed down in school is a price worth paying for their wealth and right to bear arms. They might not have reasoned just like this on their way to the voting booths, but this is the choice they made.

...and then we've got crazy people. Crazy people without guns are just as crazy as crazy people with guns, the difference is that they can't shoot anybody. But mental care is an extremely expensive solution to this problem.

It's a complex issue with many solutions, and all the solutions costs money and freedoms. The question is simply if you think the price is worth paying?

[Ozme52]

I don't think has to do with heart. For me it's simply down to reading statistics and manipulating government policies to minimise violent crime and murder. As long as it's done within a democratic framework, I don't really care how it is achieved.

um... that was said tongue in cheek. automatic v. stick shift (transmission humor) I wasn't poking at ya.

It's a more complicated issue than just banning guns. But it's painfully obvious that USA's policy it has had sucks monkey balls as far as violent crime and murder is concerned. If I'd be American, (or rather US citizen, WTF do you guys call yourself?)

We call ourselves Americans but it seems to tick off the rest of the western hemisphere....

I'd personally demand political changes to be made to fix the problem, but who cares what I think here in Sweden

There are many roots of the problem and I do think they have been identified. The solutions go something like this:

* Decrease poverty.
* Decrease alienation of the poor.
* Lessen the availability of guns.

I'm convinced of that acting on any of those will lessen the problem. The two first are related, but giving convicted criminals the right to vote would be a good first step. Having affordable and good state sponsored schools on all levels is another one of those fairly cheap ways to raise the poor out of hopelessness. Removing the guns is of course by far the cheapest solution, but not the least complicated and is a very very long term solution.

But USA is very rich which no doubt is the result of having such little aid to the poor. Being poor in USA only sucks slightly less than being poor in the jungles of Africa. They have plenty of reasons to work hard as hell. And they do and USA is rich, so there is obviously a positive pay off.

The important thing to reconcile is that USA has the high-school shootings they do and the high prevalence of murder because that is what the voters have chosen. US voters want this society. They obviously think the heightened chance of getting their kids mowed down in school is a price worth paying for their wealth and right to bear arms. They might not have reasoned just like this on their way to the voting booths, but this is the choice they made.

...and then we've got crazy people. Crazy people without guns are just as crazy as crazy people with guns, the difference is that they can't shoot anybody. But mental care is an extremely expensive solution to this problem.

It's a complex issue with many solutions, and all the solutions costs money and freedoms. The question is simply if you think the price is worth paying?

You've opened up a lot of issues. Some I agree, the ones that address problems without impinging on my rights, I can go along with those. I can even see us paying for them... and it would be cheap if we eliminated waste in our government (but that's another debate,) and some I don't.

But the question 'is it worth a few freedoms...' No, it's not worth the price. Take those away (and I'm not talking about gun rights... but the one thereafter and the one thereafter and the one thereafter...) and eventually the only thing I have to fear is doing anything without prior permission.

You don't think so? It's not just about the American Revolution. Our entire history is about rights. And it's much harder to gain a right than lose it. So every time I see one eroded away it really bothers me.

My father told me I have no idea of the things I'm not allowed to do that he took for granted. As I get older, I see it too, things that were my right to decide about my own conduct as a young adult that I risk arrest and/or fine for doing today.

I can't say for other countries... but it might be an interesting question to pose to your own parents.

[TomOfSweden]

We call ourselves Americans but it seems to tick off the rest of the western hemisphere....

Um...yeah... But pissing people off seems to be some kind of popular national past time for USA so I guess it makes sense.

You've opened up a lot of issues. Some I agree, the ones that address problems without impinging on my rights, I can go along with those. I can even see us paying for them... and it would be cheap if we eliminated waste in our government (but that's another debate,) and some I don't.

But the question 'is it worth a few freedoms...' No, it's not worth the price. Take those away (and I'm not talking about gun rights... but the one thereafter and the one thereafter and the one thereafter...) and eventually the only thing I have to fear is doing anything without prior permission.

You don't think so? It's not just about the American Revolution. Our entire history is about rights. And it's much harder to gain a right than lose it. So every time I see one eroded away it really bothers me.

My father told me I have no idea of the things I'm not allowed to do that he took for granted. As I get older, I see it too, things that were my right to decide about my own conduct as a young adult that I risk arrest and/or fine for doing today.

I can't say for other countries... but it might be an interesting question to pose to your own parents.

This is impossible to argue against. I believe in democracy. This is what you want, and US citizens like voting for, so this is the society you've got. I don't think there's a clear wrong or right here. There are strong arguments for either side. I wouldn't personally agree with your argumentation, but that is my highly subjective opinion. I don't think I'm obviously more right than you.

[spammik]

I don't think has to do with heart. For me it's simply down to reading statistics and manipulating government policies to minimise violent crime and murder. As long as it's done within a democratic framework, I don't really care how it is achieved.

It's a more complicated issue than just banning guns. But it's painfully obvious that USA's policy it has had sucks monkey balls as far as violent crime and murder is concerned. If I'd be American, (or rather US citizen, WTF do you guys call yourself?)

I'd personally demand political changes to be made to fix the problem, but who cares what I think here in Sweden

There are many roots of the problem and I do think they have been identified. The solutions go something like this:

* Decrease poverty.
* Decrease alienation of the poor.
* Lessen the availability of guns.

I'm convinced of that acting on any of those will lessen the problem. The two first are related, but giving convicted criminals the right to vote would be a good first step. Having affordable and good state sponsored schools on all levels is another one of those fairly cheap ways to raise the poor out of hopelessness. Removing the guns is of course by far the cheapest solution, but not the least complicated and is a very very long term solution.

But USA is very rich which no doubt is the result of having such little aid to the poor. Being poor in USA only sucks slightly less than being poor in the jungles of Africa. They have plenty of reasons to work hard as hell. And they do and USA is rich, so there is obviously a positive pay off.

The important thing to reconcile is that USA has the high-school shootings they do and the high prevalence of murder because that is what the voters have chosen. US voters want this society. They obviously think the heightened chance of getting their kids mowed down in school is a price worth paying for their wealth and right to bear arms. They might not have reasoned just like this on their way to the voting booths, but this is the choice they made.

...and then we've got crazy people. Crazy people without guns are just as crazy as crazy people with guns, the difference is that they can't shoot anybody. But mental care is an extremely expensive solution to this problem.

It's a complex issue with many solutions, and all the solutions costs money and freedoms. The question is simply if you think the price is worth paying?

I don't think has to do with heart. For me it's simply down to reading statistics and manipulating government policies to minimise violent crime and murder. As long as it's done within a democratic framework, I don't really care how it is achieved.

It's a more complicated issue than just banning guns. But it's painfully obvious that USA's policy it has had sucks monkey balls as far as violent crime and murder is concerned. If I'd be American, (or rather US citizen, WTF do you guys call yourself?)

I'd personally demand political changes to be made to fix the problem, but who cares what I think here in Sweden

There are many roots of the problem and I do think they have been identified. The solutions go something like this:

* Decrease poverty.
* Decrease alienation of the poor.
* Lessen the availability of guns.

I'm convinced of that acting on any of those will lessen the problem. The two first are related, but giving convicted criminals the right to vote would be a good first step. Having affordable and good state sponsored schools on all levels is another one of those fairly cheap ways to raise the poor out of hopelessness. Removing the guns is of course by far the cheapest solution, but not the least complicated and is a very very long term solution.

Yes we do need to do something about poverty and I see that happening every day in many parts of the country. The US may be viewed as rich however my family and extended family are not rich. We lived in many parts of the US as my father worked for General Motors. Yes there are rich people in the US however there are many many more that are not rich. We work hard, raise our kids, pray and work at improving the world around us. None of my brothers and sisters own guns and we have not voted for the violence or condon it. Yes I vote and hope that the person I voted for will stand behind his/her promises,yes maybe a bit unrealistic, made.
But USA is very rich which no doubt is the result of having such little aid to the poor. Being poor in USA only sucks slightly less than being poor in the jungles of Africa. They have plenty of reasons to work hard as hell. And they do and USA is rich, so there is obviously a positive pay off.

The important thing to reconcile is that USA has the high-school shootings they do and the high prevalence of murder because that is what the voters have chosen. US voters want this society. They obviously think the heightened chance of getting their kids mowed down in school is a price worth paying for their wealth and right to bear arms. They might not have reasoned just like this on their way to the voting booths, but this is the choice they made.

...and then we've got crazy people. Crazy people without guns are just as crazy as crazy people with guns, the difference is that they can't shoot anybody. But mental care is an extremely expensive solution to this problem.

It's a complex issue with many solutions, and all the solutions costs money and freedoms. The question is simply if you think the price is worth paying?

There is violence in the world around us, did they are vote for it? I don't think so. We all have free will and just because I voted one way doesn't mean that it caused someone else to get a gun and shoot people. Look at the middle east, africa, china, south america....I could go on. Yes mental health is way to expensive, I think that issue is just not one in the US. We as human beings must work at ending poverty, violence and making guns less available where ever we are in this world. Yes some countries are better at it and some not if we open our eyes and minds maybe we can learn from each other.........

[TomOfSweden]

Yes we do need to do something about poverty and I see that happening every day in many parts of the country. The US may be viewed as rich however my family and extended family are not rich. We lived in many parts of the US as my father worked for General Motors. Yes there are rich people in the US however there are many many more that are not rich. We work hard, raise our kids, pray and work at improving the world around us. None of my brothers and sisters own guns and we have not voted for the violence or condon it. Yes I vote and hope that the person I voted for will stand behind his/her promises,yes maybe a bit unrealistic, made.

Actually the median US citizen is a lot richer than the median European. So USA is richer than us. But our poorest are in turn a lot richer than USA's poorest. If a countries wealth is measured by the health status of it's poorest, USA is a third world country. It's all in how you measure. And the richest in USA are the richest on the planet. Sweden does have some fantastically rich people for our countries tiny population but if we compare numbers, Sweden is the third world country. Yes, even if you count USA's foreign debt.

You vote for the bed you want to lie in. We have to put up with a slower economic growth for increased safety and peace of mind. If you don't like USA, I'm sure you'd be welcome in Sweden. USA is a much easier country to start companies in, so if you're an entrepreneur I'd stay in USA if I where you.

[ThisYouWillDo]

Yes some countries are better at it and some not if we open our eyes and minds maybe we can learn from each other.........[/I]

Well said, that lady!

[ThisYouWillDo]

This discussion again. It's bound to be heated so I'm going to make some popcorn and lean back.

...

Ozme: So don't act like I started the chariot conversation. I was making a point that there are things in our lives far more dangerous than guns. You wanted to bring the intention of the thing into play... so I pointed out cars were once pure weapons.

You bloody-well did start the chariot conversation, by deliberately misinterpreting my use of the word "car", as you yourself admitted when you said: "I actually said wheeled vehicles... specifically thinking of chariots, which in ancient texts such as the Iliad, are translated (by some) into English as cars. Yeah, I know it wasn't the context you meant the question but I couldn't resist" (emphasis supplied).

I'm not here to knock anyone (as you seem so fond of doing) but if the US acted like Sweden during WWII, would you be speaking German? Russian? Hell man, would the Swedes be speaking those languages?

As a matter of fact, Swedes are a linguistically gifted people and almost all of them speak English better than you or I do. In addition, many also speak German, and, of course can be understood in Norwegian and Danish too. They are not to be blamed for their neutrality during the War any more than Switzerland, Spain, Portugal or Ireland are. <Sigh> I suppose I'm knocking you again, but, as you've brought it up, I feel bound to point out that during WW2, right up to the moment USA was dragged into the war, we in Britain were shitting bricks that you'd join in on the other side! And it was a close call too: Pearl Harbour was, for the Allies, a blessing, because it meant that Germany would declare war on USA in support of the Japanese, and USA would no longer have a choice about which side it was going to fight on. (Oh yes: FD Roosevelt regarded the British Empire as an obstacle to US trade and knew that a Eurpoean war would cripple it, so that America could then move in on the former colonies like carrion crows and take over as primary trading partner.) So, if things had turned out differently, and the only way FDR could see to ruin the British Empire was to fight on the other side, we might very well have been speaking German.

But what we already speak is akin to Frisian because Britons are Germans - Anglo Saxons - and that's where our desire to dominate the world must have come from. And America is also predominently of Anglo Saxon descent ... So now you know where America gets it from. (From your previous postings, Ozme, I guess you're not of Anglo Saxon origin, for which, no doubt, you give much thanks.)

How lovely it must be to be so insular to think you would even have the right to have this conversation if (pick one)

Communism,
Nazi Germany,
The Triple Alliance, or
Napolean Bonaparte had been more successful. (I get hazy thereafter.)

I don't think gun-control was ever an issue regarding any of the above. Certainly, I don't owe my freedom to speak my mind to the right to keep a semi-automatic under my bed and a handgun under my pillow.


But all that is way off point

Gun control isn't. I have no compunction about saying that possession of weapons ought to be subject to tight controls, even if it does affect a freedom you cherish, because I believe that no-one can possibly own a gun without contemplating killing someone, and I think killing is wrong. If I think your reasons against gun-control are stupid, I shall say so, knowing perfectly well that you can, and probably will, defend your position just as vigorously. I have had this debate in other threads and as a result, I have modified my views to the extent that, while I think the gun lobby is still wrong, I understand the opposing views are sincerely held - which is something I couldn't comprehend before. Sincerely held ... but wrong.

If you feel there is no further point in arguing the question, I'm sorry that we'll lose your input. It's been fun.

But, before you go, I would mention that I would ban any offensive weapon - gun, knife or club - and punish people who break that law severely if I could. However, guns are much worse than any other weapon because they can cause so much more carnage in seconds than the others could in a much greater time span, and so they deserve to be made a special case.

J-go: yes we have our lunatics - we have had people shoot kids in school playgrounds in the past. As a result, we did something about it: we tightened our already strict gun controls to make it almost impossible to get hold of a gun legally. Possession of an illegal firearm will, of course, land you in gaol.

There are plenty of illegal firearms around, admittedly. Some are held by teenage "rebels" and most of the rest seem to be held by drug dealers from Jamaica. Fortunately, gunfights and gun deaths are relatively few, and seem to be confined to the circles in which those people move. Generally speaking, they are not the kind of people who would go mad in a university or college.

TYWD

[Thorne]

during WW2, right up to the moment USA was dragged into the war, we in Britain were shitting bricks that you'd join in on the other side! And it was a close call too: Pearl Harbour was, for the Allies, a blessing, because it meant that Germany would declare war on USA in support of the Japanese, and USA would no longer have a choice about which side it was going to fight on. (Oh yes: FD Roosevelt regarded the British Empire as an obstacle to US trade and knew that a Eurpoean war would cripple it, so that America could then move in on the former colonies like carrion crows and take over as primary trading partner.) So, if things had turned out differently, and the only way FDR could see to ruin the British Empire was to fight on the other side, we might very well have been speaking German.

I'm a student of WWII and I've never heard anything like this before. FDR was helping out England long before Pearl Harbor, and against the wishes of Congress and possibly the majority of American people, who wanted to remain out of the war. FDR came up with the idea of Lend/Lease which allowed him to send weapons and supplies to England and later Russia, even though we were not yet in the war. I doubt that there was ever much of a chance of the US joining with Hitler. The Jewish owned banks would not have allowed it, for one thing. And let's not forget, there were Americans fighting WITH the British well before Pearl Harbor, notably in the Eagle Squadron. In fact, there was an American "observer" on Catalina Z of Coastal Command, which located the Bismarck after she'd slipped away from the British cruisers which had been tailing her. ("Pursuit" by Ludovic Kennedy)
As for the Empire being an obstacle to trade, I must admit I'm not very well informed on economic activities of the era, so I can't really comment on that. But this is definitely the first time I've ever heard anything which suggested the possibility of the US joining Germany.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I'm a student of WWII and I've never heard anything like this before. FDR was helping out England long before Pearl Harbor, and against the wishes of Congress and possibly the majority of American people, who wanted to remain out of the war. FDR came up with the idea of Lend/Lease which allowed him to send weapons and supplies to England and later Russia, even though we were not yet in the war. I doubt that there was ever much of a chance of the US joining with Hitler. The Jewish owned banks would not have allowed it, for one thing. And let's not forget, there were Americans fighting WITH the British well before Pearl Harbor, notably in the Eagle Squadron. In fact, there was an American "observer" on Catalina Z of Coastal Command, which located the Bismarck after she'd slipped away from the British cruisers which had been tailing her. ("Pursuit" by Ludovic Kennedy)
As for the Empire being an obstacle to trade, I must admit I'm not very well informed on economic activities of the era, so I can't really comment on that. But this is definitely the first time I've ever heard anything which suggested the possibility of the US joining Germany.

Shall we put this on another thread?

[Thorne]

Shall we put this on another thread?

Works for me. It does stray from the original topic.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I have tried to be restrained, Tom

[ThisYouWillDo]

To me, it's obvious: if what he did was legal then the laws are wrong. Change them.

[mkemse]

To me, it's obvious: if what he did was legal then the laws are wrong. Change them.

We have tried for years to change gun laws in the United States the big probelm we have is the NRA the National Rifle Association has so much power as lobbiests here that no major changes ever make it through congress, they are killed or burned in congress and get nowhere amknig chages is not the issue getting them passed and having a President sign them is the issue 99% of gun law chahges never go anywhere, they get introduced into congress and then just die there or get vetoed with not enough votes to overide a veto

[Ozme52]

My "ME" refers to the countless efforts made in congress to pass tighter gun control laws, what Americans need to do is elect Congressmen and Women n And Representtives that will not be beholden to THE NRA, only congress can pass these laws, they are made up of people at WE as citizien elec, if you want your Senator or Represenative to vote against the NRA elected and get into officethose who will fight the NRA lobbiests is what my intent was in say that, we as american decide through election who serves in Wasigngton, wehave a MAJOR Election comingi n November elect those that will support stronger gun laws, all we can do as citizens is elect our officials we do not makethe laws themselves we simply elect thsoe who can and can ass them and pass them all by a wide enough margin that that they are NOT veto proof

You mean your "We"...? jeeze, at least try to quote yourself accurately.

And your hyperbole no longer impresses me. If you can only repeat yourself and have no desire to argue against the points others make... why are you even starting the threads?

[mkemse]

You mean your "We"...? jeeze, at least try to quote yourself accurately.

And your hyperbole no longer impresses me. If you can only repeat yourself and have no desire to argue against the points others make... why are you even starting the threads?

I apollgize for not being as artucukate with yours as you are, I am human sorry I did not exporess it right, thereality is the people ofthis country electe and voteinto officethose who write and pass our laws, you do as a citizen, if you do not like who represents youi n Washington see if you can getthem replaced with someonewho has your views and beliefs, if they do not get elected you have to live with who won

like they used to say when kids are young and living at home "You may not like the rues butwhie lyou livehere you will obey them"
elect people you want in office to mandate rules and laws you want fi you can elect and get into office who you support you keep trying, not all laws that everyone wants will always be passed

[ThisYouWillDo]

Osme: apologies for the misspelling - it's a natural tendency for us Brits to change all Amrican Z's to S's when we Anglicise words.

Laffin even harder than you about the car statistics. I asked if cars (the vehicles to which you had actually referred) were designed to kill, not war charriots (I'd ban those too if they were still around) or any other wheeled vehicle in general. I mean, it would be a meaningless comparison to set armoured vehicles against guns to see which was worse in the context of this thread, wouldn't it?

As for your assertion that wheels were first invented for military purposes rather than transport and recreation, I'm sceptical. First came rollers - they were only useful for moving really heavy objects such as building blocks. Then came sledges; you could move smaller things more freely and quickly, but not really useful for charging an opposing army with.

Then came sledges on rollers. Much faster, but still not much good for military purposes. And after that, grooved rollers - "nearly-wheels". Relatively fast and manoeuverable, but crap for chariots. Eventually, someone worked out how to make a wheel. A heavy object, made of solid wood, and cumbersome. No-one knows what it was used for, but it was too heavy for a lightweight chariot. Maybe the first armoured personnel carrrier? Probably a cart.

Ozme: if the clear majority of people were for gun control it would pass.

With all due respect, that's bollocks. No - I take that back (the bollocks part: I still have respect for you): if the clear majority of people who actually voted on that issue were for gun control, it would pass. But have you ever had a vote on that single issue where the entire electorate took part? I suspect not. If only 3 people in America voted, 1 for and 2 against, it would pass. If only 1 person voted, it would pass. Those are the clear majorities needed.

Or just one NRA psychopath more than all "pro gun-control" voters would prevent it.

Apologies again. That was perjorative language.

It's nothing to do with freedom: you can be free without guns: I am. It's nothing to do with the War of Independence. That argument was won 250 years ago and the overbearing British are no longer a threat to you. And don't try to tell me that, if your government took it into its head to raise taxes on tea without letting you vote on it, you would all rise up agaisnt it, waving your hunting kalashnikovs and hunting bazookas and hunting grenade throwers. There's no taste for revolution in USA these days.

But of course, your government isn't going to do that, so there's no need to have the guns that they would have prevented you from using against them anyway.

Thorne: Yeah, I guess that would be equivalent to my getting my impressions of English bobbies from watching Benny Hill. Not necessarily the best source.

Benny Hill got it just about right ... except for the dolly birds running around in just their knickers.

As for your other points, they are as I expected, and I acknowledge their strength. But I reject them, of course.

Thorne: It's obvious that you have a higher regard for the "sanctity" of human life than I do.

'nuff said.

Ozme: And your hyperbole no longer impresses me. If you can only repeat yourself and have no desire to argue against the points others make... why are you even starting the threads?

A little harsh, no? I think this is a very important thread. And I thank mkemse for starting it. He is, after all, perfectly free to do so in your country. The fact that he is finding it necessary to repeat himself could very well be due to the fact that he has had no constructive suggestions from the "pro-gun" lobby about what to do regarding the poor students of America who are being shot like fish in a barrel. Is their right to life ... is the right of any one of them ... worth less than the right of a bunch of Kentucky hicks or Louisiana rednecks to shoot the wings off flies?

Perhaps they have nothing constructive to say in this regard?

[mkemse]

Osme: apologies for the misspelling - it's a natural tendency for us Brits to change all Amrican Z's to S's when we Anglicise words.

Laffin even harder than you about the car statistics. I asked if cars (the vehicles to which you had actually referred) were designed to kill, not war charriots (I'd ban those too if they were still around) or any other wheeled vehicle in general. I mean, it would be a meaningless comparison to set armoured vehicles against guns to see which was worse in the context of this thread, wouldn't it?

As for your assertion that wheels were first invented for military purposes rather than transport and recreation, I'm sceptical. First came rollers - they were only useful for moving really heavy objects such as building blocks. Then came sledges; you could move smaller things more freely and quickly, but not really useful for charging an opposing army with.

Then came sledges on rollers. Much faster, but still not much good for military purposes. And after that, grooved rollers - "nearly-wheels". Relatively fast and manoeuverable, but crap for chariots. Eventually, someone worked out how to make a wheel. A heavy object, made of solid wood, and cumbersome. No-one knows what it was used for, but it was too heavy for a lightweight chariot. Maybe the first armoured personnel carrrier? Probably a cart.



With all due respect, that's bollocks. No - I take that back (the bollocks part: I still have respect for you): if the clear majority of people who actually voted on that issue were for gun control, it would pass. But have you ever had a vote on that single issue where the entire electorate took part? I suspect not. If only 3 people in America voted, 1 for and 2 against, it would pass. If only 1 person voted, it would pass. Those are the clear majorities needed.

Or just one NRA psychopath more than all "pro gun-control" voters would prevent it.

Apologies again. That was perjorative language.

It's nothing to do with freedom: you can be free without guns: I am. It's nothing to do with the War of Independence. That argument was won 250 years ago and the overbearing British are no longer a threat to you. And don't try to tell me that, if your government took it into its head to raise taxes on tea without letting you vote on it, you would all rise up agaisnt it, waving your hunting kalashnikovs and hunting bazookas and hunting grenade throwers. There's no taste for revolution in USA these days.

But of course, your government isn't going to do that, so there's no need to have the guns that they would have prevented you from using against them anyway.





Benny Hill got it just about right ... except for the dolly birds running around in just their knickers.

As for your other points, they are as I expected, and I acknowledge their strength. But I reject them, of course.



'nuff said.





A little harsh, no? I think this is a very important thread. And I thank mkemse for starting it. He is, after all, perfectly free to do so in your country. The fact that he is finding it necessary to repeat himself could very well be due to the fact that he has had no constructive suggestions from the "pro-gun" lobby about what to do regarding the poor students of America who are being shot like fish in a barrel. Is their right to life ... is the right of any one of them ... worth less than the right of a bunch of Kentucky hicks or Louisiana rednecks to shoot the wings off flies?

Perhaps they have nothing constructive to say in this regard?

I have no problem what so ever with gun ownership, if person wants a rifle to hunt with, that is his or her choice, if they want a gun to protect their house and family i have no issue withthat either

What my objection is that virtualy anyone can obtain a semi automatic assault rifle or similar in a hand gun fro ms gun shop, the type of hand gun used in the recent college shooting Dekalb Illinois,it was a semi automatic rapis fire hand gun bought at a local gun shop
I see no reason for the average citizen NON gun collector to own a rapid fire gun that hold say 80 rounds the only purpose of an assault rifle is to kill, they are used my the military for that puprose, and collectors use them for display and most of them are not live guns they simply collect them
I do not believe for 1 second a person needs an assult rifle to deer hunt, duck hunt, bird hunt ect, not to mention i have never see an deer, bird, rabbit or any animal fire back , so whey an assault rifle, why is not a standard rifle alone not good enough to hunt with?? and why an assault rifle to protect you family and house a standard rifle wouls servce the purpose just fine
Woud I ever own gun, no i have no reason to owe one wouldi ever consider it if the need arose absolutely, not as of now I simply have no need ot own one

[Ozme52]

I have no problem what so ever with gun ownership, if person wants a rifle to hunt with, that is his or her choice, if they want a gun to protect their house and family i have no issue withthat either

What my objection is that virtualy anyone can obtain a semi automatic assault rifle or similar in a hand gun fro ms gun shop, the type of hand gun used in the recent college shooting Dekalb Illinois,it was a semi automatic rapis fire hand gun bought at a local gun shop
I see no reason for the average citizen NON gun collector to own a rapid fire gun that hold say 80 rounds the only purpose of an assault rifle is to kill, they are used my the military for that puprose, and collectors use them for display and most of them are not live guns they simply collect them
I do not believe for 1 second a person needs an assult rifle to deer hunt, duck hunt, bird hunt ect, not to mention i have never see an deer, bird, rabbit or any animal fire back , so whey an assault rifle, why is not a standard rifle alone not good enough to hunt with?? and why an assault rifle to protect you family and house a standard rifle wouls servce the purpose just fine
Woud I ever own gun, no i have no reason to owe one wouldi ever consider it if the need arose absolutely, not as of now I simply have no need ot own one

Many wheelguns (revolvers) can be fired far more rapidly than semi-automatic pistols.

To my knowledge, there are no semi-automatic pistols that hold 80 rounds.

And you're vascillating. So no one who is a NON-collector should be banned from owning such guns.

Better define that. How does one get 'collector' status?

What about shotguns? Multiple projectiles which scatter into a wide area... pretty indiscriminant.

What about scoped (sniper) rifles? They fall well within the bounds you approve of. Single shot, small magazine.

You're clearly one of those who think pecking away at my rights bit by bit is the way to go... and that's why I object to any sort of gun control. Because those of your type don't stop. Give them an inch, they want a mile.

[Ozme52]

Laffin even harder than you about the car statistics. I asked if cars (the vehicles to which you had actually referred) were designed to kill, not war charriots (I'd ban those too if they were still around) or any other wheeled vehicle in general. I mean, it would be a meaningless comparison to set armoured vehicles against guns to see which was worse in the context of this thread, wouldn't it?

Laffin with ya... BUT...

Main Entry: 1char·i·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈcher-ē-ət, ˈcha-rē-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Old French, from charrier to transport, from char vehicle, from Latin carrus — more at car
Date: 14th century
1 : a light four-wheeled pleasure or state carriage
2 : a two-wheeled horse-drawn battle car of ancient times used also in processions and races

As for your assertion that wheels were first invented for military purposes rather than transport and recreation,

I actually said wheeled vehicles... specifically thinking of chariots, which in ancient texts such as the Iliad, are translated (by some) into English as cars. Yeah, I know it wasn't the context you meant the question but I couldn't resist.

Even the first definition of 'car' is the archaic use, today we use the word chariot... but it was originally a car.

So, the rest you say regarding wheels... probably true... but I think I snookered you on "cars". LOL,

With all due respect, that's bollocks. No - I take that back (the bollocks part: I still have respect for you): if the clear majority of people who actually voted on that issue were for gun control, it would pass. But have you ever had a vote on that single issue where the entire electorate took part? I suspect not. If only 3 people in America voted, 1 for and 2 against, it would pass. If only 1 person voted, it would pass. Those are the clear majorities needed.

I almost wish it were so. It would be good to know what most people think instead of what a few spokespersons claim.

On the other hand, I'm not all that convinced that people wouldn't just parrot what they hear from the current celebrities of the day. After-all, that's why the NRA used Charlton Heston... hell, if Moses says it, it's gotta be true.

So maybe it's a good thing the mob doesn't rule.

But my point was and still is... just because someone loudly proclaims that it's only the gun lobby that impedes the passage of this... well there are huge numbers of non-NRA folk who don't believe we should have gun control.

Or just one NRA psychopath more than all "pro gun-control" voters would prevent it.

Apologies again. That was perjorative language.

It's nothing to do with freedom: you can be free without guns: I am. It's nothing to do with the War of Independence. That argument was won 250 years ago and the overbearing British are no longer a threat to you. And don't try to tell me that, if your government took it into its head to raise taxes on tea without letting you vote on it, you would all rise up agaisnt it, waving your hunting kalashnikovs and hunting bazookas and hunting grenade throwers. There's no taste for revolution in USA these days.

But of course, your government isn't going to do that, so there's no need to have the guns that they would have prevented you from using against them anyway.

It's not about the assault rifles per se... but the 'worry' that the right to bear arms will be eroded. Take away assault rifles and then handguns and then largebore hunting rifles (no elephants in the U.S. ya know) and then any hunting rifle because we raise enough meat on farms and ranches for everyone... and... and... and eventually why do you even need a 'varmint rifle'.

I know it seems a ridiculous arguement... but tell that to my grandpa... but you can't... they took away his guns and then sent him and the family away.

[Ozme52]

A little harsh, no?

Definitely.

I think this is a very important thread. And I thank mkemse for starting it. He is, after all, perfectly free to do so in your country. The fact that he is finding it necessary to repeat himself could very well be due to the fact that he has had no constructive suggestions from the "pro-gun" lobby about what to do regarding the poor students of America who are being shot like fish in a barrel. Is their right to life ... is the right of any one of them ... worth less than the right of a bunch of Kentucky hicks or Louisiana rednecks to shoot the wings off flies?

Perhaps they have nothing constructive to say in this regard?

Why must the answer be gun control. Warbaby offerred up corporal punishment. I could suggest better psychiatric services.

The fact the man used a gun is irrelevant. He was unbalanced, stopped taking his medication.
So what if he used a gun. He could have used a knife or a club, a bat or an axe. He even could have used a car.

In fact... a few years ago someone wigged out and purposely drove his car onto a elementary school campus and killed some children there. He was a psych job... but no one (and I have to admit, I was thinking about this case when I started in about cars, no one suggested we ban cars. It was an automatic. (laffin) But it was also a luxury car. Why would anyone need a luxury car? A car is for transportation.

But if I were to be adamant about this position, you'd say I was flogging the proverbial dead horse. Yet is it really so different than saying gun ownership should be limited, or categorized by the kind of gun? Before you say "intent" I'll remind you of the statistics. More people die to accidental vehicle incidents than purposeful gun incidents. Maybe we should do something about that first?

Citing these kinds of incidents as a need for gun control is about caring more about the issue than the incident.

[mkemse]

Definitely.




Why must the answer be gun control. Warbaby offerred up corporal punishment. I could suggest better psychiatric services.

The fact the man used a gun is irrelevant. He was unbalanced, stopped taking his medication.
So what if he used a gun. He could have used a knife or a club, a bat or an axe. He even could have used a car.

In fact... a few years ago someone wigged out and purposely drove his car onto a elementary school campus and killed some children there. He was a psych job... but no one (and I have to admit, I was thinking about this case when I started in about cars, no one suggested we ban cars. It was an automatic. (laffin) But it was also a luxury car. Why would anyone need a luxury car? A car is for transportation.

But if I were to be adamant about this position, you'd say I was flogging the proverbial dead horse. Yet is it really so different than saying gun ownership should be limited, or categorized by the kind of gun? Before you say "intent" I'll remind you of the statistics. More people die to accidental vehicle incidents than purposeful gun incidents. Maybe we should do something about that first?

Citing these kinds of incidents as a need for gun control is about caring more about the issue than the incident.

But he also PASSED all the paperwork needed to get a gun, his stopping his medication etc is not relivent here, because he went through all the proper steps on paper work, his back ground checked came back all clear , there no a legal reason not to sell him the guns he bought which were from a licensed gun dealer, it was a legal legitimate sale based n his paper work and his clear background check, even the dealer was stunned to hear about what happened (so he said anyway)

[ThisYouWillDo]

My message was for general consumption, but was in response to Ozme's posts.

However, I think it explains why I think all guns are unnecessary - at least for ordinary citizens.

[ThisYouWillDo]

Personally, I think USA would benefit from taking a long hard look at how European countries deal with issues such as these, so it should care what Swedes say. Maybe, then, it could see itself more clearly in a brighter light. It is not alone in the world, and it has no monopoly on what is right.

I think Tom's suggestions are probably the best on offer so far. Certainly poverty is an issue, because I am sure that most armed crime is committed by the poor and hopeless. Education, too, is important, and I would suggest that smaller schools would go a long way to helping, too. Where students number a few hundred rather than several hundred or even thousands, they become impersonal and potentially hostile places where all forms of bullying and petty crime can flourish unchecked: smaller schools can identify such behaviour quicker and stamp it out easier. Also, it is easier to identify with a smaller school and build ties of loyalty. This is character forming. I would suggest also that smaller schools would be able to produce better levels of education, so fewer people, even poor people, would feel quite so helpless and hopeless.

But none of that stops the "crazies". And they must either be prevented from assassinating their school chums, or they must suffer punishment for doing so afterwards. If prevention is seen as better than cure, isn't the first step to make it nigh on impossible to get hold of guns?

Sure, it means that a "freedom" is sacrificed: the freedom to do what? And does that amount to a hill of beans?

TYWD

[Ozme52]

Personally, I think USA would benefit from taking a long hard look at how European countries deal with issues such as these, so it should care what Swedes say. Maybe, then, it could see itself more clearly in a brighter light. It is not alone in the world, and it has no monopoly on what is right.

Damn but that's condescending of you.

How lovely it must be to be so insular to think you would even have the right to have this conversation if (pick one)

Communism,
Nazi Germany,
The Triple Alliance, or
Napolean Bonaparte had been more successful. (I get hazy thereafter.)

We are what we are specifically because of how history unfolded. A large part of your current freedoms are about, is because of how your international neighbors conduct themselves... and in the last century, to a great degree, the US.

I'm not here to knock anyone (as you seem so fond of doing) but if the US acted like Sweden during WWII, would you be speaking German? Russian? Hell man, would the Swedes be speaking those languages?

See TY. I can be condescending too!

I think Tom's suggestions are probably the best on offer so far. Certainly poverty is an issue, because I am sure that most armed crime is committed by the poor and hopeless. Education, too, is important, and I would suggest that smaller schools would go a long way to helping, too. Where students number a few hundred rather than several hundred or even thousands, they become impersonal and potentially hostile places where all forms of bullying and petty crime can flourish unchecked: smaller schools can identify such behaviour quicker and stamp it out easier. Also, it is easier to identify with a smaller school and build ties of loyalty. This is character forming. I would suggest also that smaller schools would be able to produce better levels of education, so fewer people, even poor people, would feel quite so helpless and hopeless.

But none of that stops the "crazies". And they must either be prevented from assassinating their school chums, or they must suffer punishment for doing so afterwards. If prevention is seen as better than cure, isn't the first step to make it nigh on impossible to get hold of guns?

No! The tools of choice for the young has traditionally been knives and clubs and pipes and chains and have done plenty of damage and harm... Eliminate guns and other weapons will be used. Bombs maybe. You seem to think the controlling the tool eliminates the problem. Or at least you delight in saying so when it comes to guns.

Sure, it means that a "freedom" is sacrificed: the freedom to do what? And does that amount to a hill of beans?

TYWD

Fine. We can discuss a lot of things and get heated or not... But as you are so dismissive of my sensibilities... that I hold my freedoms dear, it's no longer worth discussing.

[J-Go]

You know one would think that only in America do whacked out people shoot people. I suppose in other parts of the world they just knife them club them or blow them up. At the end of the day the method is not much of an argument…these people are still dead. The point is we live on a violent planet, beings kill and get killed and have since life hit the planet. So really a conversation as to what to do about this only leads to well....this. A bunch of opinions and although well meaning and sincere from the standpoint of “mostly sane” people as we have here on the forum, is unlikely to change a damn thing.
We are here for the experience of living, part of that experience is death and war and all sorts of nasty wicked evil shit. Of course the press in any country loves it. When was the last time anyone saw this media headline "25,000 students lived their lives to the best of there abilities today and hurt absolutely no one!" film at 11:00!!
I’m terribly sorry for the families of these people, I can’t even imagine, but am I outraged…honestly no. It’s terrible, tragic, and all that but it’s also the experience of life…sometimes it just sucks and there is not a damn thing we can do about it. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of people on this planet manage to keep it together and live a life in pursuit of happiness and love for themselves and their neighbors…thanks to all of you for that.

[mkemse]

You know one would think that only in America do whacked out people shoot people. I suppose in other parts of the world they just knife them club them or blow them up. At the end of the day the method is not much of an argument…these people are still dead. The point is we live on a violent planet, beings kill and get killed and have since life hit the planet. So really a conversation as to what to do about this only leads to well....this. A bunch of opinions and although well meaning and sincere from the standpoint of “mostly sane” people as we have here on the forum, is unlikely to change a damn thing.
We are here for the experience of living, part of that experience is death and war and all sorts of nasty wicked evil shit. Of course the press in any country loves it. When was the last time anyone saw this media headline "25,000 students lived their lives to the best of there abilities today and hurt absolutely no one!" film at 11:00!!
I’m terribly sorry for the families of these people, I can’t even imagine, but am I outraged…honestly no. It’s terrible, tragic, and all that but it’s also the experience of life…sometimes it just sucks and there is not a damn thing we can do about it. Fortunately the overwhelming majority of people on this planet manage to keep it together and live a life in pursuit of happiness and love for themselves and their neighbors…thanks to all of you for that.

I do notthink that as an American Citizen only unless it is a major shooting Americans do not hear too often about massacres like that in othercountries, I have no doubtthis problem is world wide ramdon murders like school assualts onbly we rarely hear about it from other countries that's all