Condoms for teen agers

[denuseri]

Just when I thought it was safe to enter a thread where no one would try to make it personal,,,looks up and rolls my eyes.

I say YES they should have access to condoms and birth control, boy, girl, hermaphrodite it doesnt matter.

Teach them to not have sex at that age all you wish, if they want they will find a way to do it anyway. They may as well know how to be safe.

[DuncanONeil]

Don't you think that the fact that there are no consequences for their actions has a large bearing on the choices they make.

In a large part your post also reads as if kids have always been engaging in sex at the first opportunity. Yes I know a percentage do but that is not how your post reads.

All kids are going to have sex. At first opportunity. So let's not teach them discipline, just let them do whatever they want whenever. We will find a way to fix it so it does not present adverse consequences.

In large part that seems like teaching that there are no rules of any kind!!

Just when I thought it was safe to enter a thread where no one would try to make it personal,,,looks up and rolls my eyes.

I say YES they should have access to condoms and birth control, boy, girl, hermaphrodite it doesnt matter.

Teach them to not have sex at that age all you wish, if they want they will find a way to do it anyway. They may as well know how to be safe.

[Ozme52]

Don't you think that the fact that there are no consequences for their actions has a large bearing on the choices they make.

In a large part your post also reads as if kids have always been engaging in sex at the first opportunity. Yes I know a percentage do but that is not how your post reads.

All kids are going to have sex. At first opportunity. So let's not teach them discipline, just let them do whatever they want whenever. We will find a way to fix it so it does not present adverse consequences.

I'd say it takes far more discipline to choose to use a condom than to just go do it. It takes preparation, consent, willingness to be responsible for ones actions...

Condoms, especially condoms as part of sex education, represent knowledge and responsibility. Without that, it's just kids being their natural irresponsible selves.

In large part that seems like teaching that there are no rules of any kind!!

Whereas I obviously think it's just the opposite.

[SadisticNature]

I'd say it takes far more discipline to choose to use a condom than to just go do it. It takes preparation, consent, willingness to be responsible for ones actions...

Condoms, especially condoms as part of sex education, represent knowledge and responsibility. Without that, it's just kids being their natural irresponsible selves.

Agree with this 100%.

Also regarding the early discussion about childhood. I disagree that the main factor is the modernization of society. I think a lot of it is our advanced knowledge of brain development compared to previous societies. I suspect that had previous societies had detailed knowledge about brain development that they could test and verify, a lot of their rules and ages would have been different. Perhaps not, they might have been forced into impractical roles by the times.

As for the whole sex before marriage question, I don't think any classroom instruction in a public secular school system should be based on religious values. I think if you personally have problems with how the school does things you should opt-out (your child needs a permission form for sex-ed if you don't like the curriculum don't sign it), and teach them it yourself (or through your church if its a religious values program). The fact is discussions about various forms of protection are far more difficult than discussions about abstinence for most parents.

[DuncanONeil]

Why must values that are also values within a religious setting to be excluded from a school setting?

Agree with this 100%.

Also regarding the early discussion about childhood. I disagree that the main factor is the modernization of society. I think a lot of it is our advanced knowledge of brain development compared to previous societies. I suspect that had previous societies had detailed knowledge about brain development that they could test and verify, a lot of their rules and ages would have been different. Perhaps not, they might have been forced into impractical roles by the times.

As for the whole sex before marriage question, I don't think any classroom instruction in a public secular school system should be based on religious values. I think if you personally have problems with how the school does things you should opt-out (your child needs a permission form for sex-ed if you don't like the curriculum don't sign it), and teach them it yourself (or through your church if its a religious values program). The fact is discussions about various forms of protection are far more difficult than discussions about abstinence for most parents.

[Thorne]

Why must values that are also values within a religious setting to be excluded from a school setting?

Some values obviously apply in both religious and non-religious contexts: proscriptions against murder, theft, child abuse, etc. Other values apply only within a religious context: prayer, bible study, etc.

The problem occurs when people try to extend those values which only apply in their religious setting into public schools, where people with other religious values are sending their kids. Which sets of values should be taught?

[DuncanONeil]

Some values obviously apply in both religious and non-religious contexts: proscriptions against murder, theft, child abuse, etc. Other values apply only within a religious context: prayer, bible study, etc.

The problem occurs when people try to extend those values which only apply in their religious setting into public schools, where people with other religious values are sending their kids. Which sets of values should be taught?

Neither prayer nor Bible study are values.

[thir]

Some values obviously apply in both religious and non-religious contexts: proscriptions against murder, theft, child abuse, etc. Other values apply only within a religious context: prayer, bible study, etc.

The problem occurs when people try to extend those values which only apply in their religious setting into public schools, where people with other religious values are sending their kids. Which sets of values should be taught?

Or with no religion.

[SadisticNature]

Why must values that are also values within a religious setting to be excluded from a school setting?

There is a difference between excluding values from a setting entirely and from teaching based on those values in the classroom. I have no problems with religious clubs at school for things like lunchtime prayer or reasonable accommodations for religious beliefs - wearing of religious symbols provided they aren't weapons for instance.

But a school should cater to all its users not just the majority. There is no consistent way of teaching based on a specific faith that caters to every faith in the classroom. The way many nations have solved this problem is through the use of a secular school system.

If you want faith based teaching you can get it in a private school. I don't see why the burden is on the government to provide teaching based on the values of your specific faith in a public education system. This would be very problematic to run if they had to provide it for every single faith and would probably be the definition of large government.

[DuncanONeil]

I went to a private school. I am here to tell you that the only time there was any "faith based" based teaching was during the religion class.
All other subjects were taught based on the science of the subject!
I have never advocated for faith based teaching. To assert so is to introduce your own personal bias into the discussion. Please try to refrain from doing so as I make effort to be specific in what I say.

I will give credit for you apparent acceptance of various students differing desires, "I have no problems with religious clubs at school".

There is a difference between excluding values from a setting entirely and from teaching based on those values in the classroom. I have no problems with religious clubs at school for things like lunchtime prayer or reasonable accommodations for religious beliefs - wearing of religious symbols provided they aren't weapons for instance.

But a school should cater to all its users not just the majority. There is no consistent way of teaching based on a specific faith that caters to every faith in the classroom. The way many nations have solved this problem is through the use of a secular school system.

If you want faith based teaching you can get it in a private school. I don't see why the burden is on the government to provide teaching based on the values of your specific faith in a public education system. This would be very problematic to run if they had to provide it for every single faith and would probably be the definition of large government.

[Ozme52]

Why must values that are also values within a religious setting to be excluded from a school setting?

They don't except when those religious values don't match mine.

And expecially not when a percentage of those "values" are arbitrary and misrepresented as being holy.

I'll always fall back (because I'm petty that way) on the "societal abuse" I took in school for eating meat on Fridays. A religious value of piety based on a bribe the then Pope took from the Genoese fishing cartel. But I had to endure as a child because I wasn't raised to believe JC died for "my" sins... sins like eating a bologna sandwich on a Friday.

THAT's why your religious values have no place in an American (meaning USA) school.

[DuncanONeil]

Abstaining from meat on Friday is not a value!
I was never presented with meat on Friday as a sin. Just something not done.

They don't except when those religious values don't match mine.

And expecially not when a percentage of those "values" are arbitrary and misrepresented as being holy.

I'll always fall back (because I'm petty that way) on the "societal abuse" I took in school for eating meat on Fridays. A religious value of piety based on a bribe the then Pope took from the Genoese fishing cartel. But I had to endure as a child because I wasn't raised to believe JC died for "my" sins... sins like eating a bologna sandwich on a Friday.

THAT's why your religious values have no place in an American (meaning USA) school.

[Ozme52]

Agree with this 100%.

Thanx.

Also regarding the early discussion about childhood. I disagree that the main factor is the modernization of society. I think a lot of it is our advanced knowledge of brain development compared to previous societies.

This is actually very "new" science and hasn't been widely accepted yet. if that were not so, we wouldn't be seeing more and more localities prosecuting children as adults instead of perhaps raising the age, especially for teen murderers who lashed out violently on a one-time basis against a constant, even dangerous bully.

Instead prosecutors are trying these minor children as full on adults.

So while I agree that science is beginning to understand that teen brains aren't "fully developed for rational thought" sounds good... it isn't being used and certainly not being used to justify delaying the teaching of sex ed.

It's strictly argued on moral grounds.

[DuncanONeil]

Oops! Wrong person.

I'd say it takes far more discipline to choose to use a condom than to just go do it. It takes preparation, consent, willingness to be responsible for ones actions...

Condoms, especially condoms as part of sex education, represent knowledge and responsibility. Without that, it's just kids being their natural irresponsible selves.
Whereas I obviously think it's just the opposite.

[DuncanONeil]

I think you have a misunderstanding of discipline.

I'd say it takes far more discipline to choose to use a condom than to just go do it. It takes preparation, consent, willingness to be responsible for ones actions...

Condoms, especially condoms as part of sex education, represent knowledge and responsibility. Without that, it's just kids being their natural irresponsible selves.
Whereas I obviously think it's just the opposite.

[Ozme52]

I think you have a misunderstanding of discipline.

I doubt that. There are many definitions. Please pay attention to the context of the sentence.

Definition #5c (if that helps.)

Main Entry: 1dis·ci·pline
Pronunciation: \ˈdi-sə-plən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date: 13th century
1 : punishment
2 obsolete : instruction
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : self-control
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

[DuncanONeil]

I doubt that. There are many definitions. Please pay attention to the context of the sentence.

Definition #5c (if that helps.)

I would much prefer that six be the prime definition. Way too many people are fixated on, what, the first two!

[Ozme52]

I would much prefer that six be the prime definition. Way too many people are fixated on, what, the first two!

That may well be... but don't say I am somehow incapable of choosing my words correctly, implying that my misunderstanding of some word invalidates my arguement.

Such would be an apochryphal implication.

[SadisticNature]

Sorry that the statement got interpreted as an attack, wasn't my intent.

I was trying to suggest the level of extremism involved in claiming that the following are equivalent:

(1) The government enforcing a certain moral code regarding sex.
(2) The government enforcing educational requirements for youths.

I personally believe (1) is rather heinous, while (2) is common sense.

Just when I thought it was safe to enter a thread where no one would try to make it personal,,,looks up and rolls my eyes.

I say YES they should have access to condoms and birth control, boy, girl, hermaphrodite it doesnt matter.

Teach them to not have sex at that age all you wish, if they want they will find a way to do it anyway. They may as well know how to be safe.

[DuncanONeil]

Which government?

Sorry that the statement got interpreted as an attack, wasn't my intent.

I was trying to suggest the level of extremism involved in claiming that the following are equivalent:

(1) The government enforcing a certain moral code regarding sex.
(2) The government enforcing educational requirements for youths.

I personally believe (1) is rather heinous, while (2) is common sense.