Rape : Semantics, Definitions and Culture

[ProjectEuropa]

I find it hard to understand how a man can be turned on by the brutal destruction of the source of his pleasure. No degree of visceral need can explain it.

I question whether a woman is a source of a man's pleasure or a man the source of a woman's but that is another discussion.

Rape, like any other crime, is cultural. If a society does not have a sexual crime defined as what we in the west describe as rape, then rape does not exist. We are horrified by rape because we have been socialised into being horrified by the crime of rape. There are no fundemental values to the human condition other than to get by the best we can. Thankfully, for most of us in the west, co-operation is the best way to get by. However the beast is in all of us and to anyone who has interviewed rapists and murderers or witnessed them be being interviewed first hand, the horrifying thing is that they are ordinary people and not monsters of the tabloid press.

But if we as a culture have a defined crime, should we consider that defined crime to be a crime in another culture or should we consider that crime acceptable when it is in another culture? As a society, we in the west are pretty ambigous as to what is acceptable in another culture. We invade countries where our economic interests are at stake and we are willing to stand back and watch genocide take place. We are horrified but being horrified enables us to live with our complicity in a crime.

Seneca - 'We are mad, not only individually, but nationally. We check manslaughter and isolated murders; but what of war and the much vaunted crime of slaughtering whole peoples?'

[Hunter]

Rape, like any other crime, is cultural. If a society does not have a sexual crime defined as what we in the west describe as rape, then rape does not exist.

Well hell I don't know how to say shit in any other language but my own either but pretty much if it looks like it and stinks like it I don't need to run it in to be analyzed to recognize it. They may not have it on the law books in other cultures. They may not call it the same thing. Regardless, forcing yourself on someone who doesn't want you is wrong period. And I don't think "we in the west" have cornered the market on common sense and good law enforcement.

For the record ladies I've heard from on the subject state that they lose their sex drive and skip periods while under high stress.

[Donatien]

But if we as a culture have a defined crime, should we consider that defined crime to be a crime in another culture or should we consider that crime acceptable when it is in another culture? As a society, we in the west are pretty ambiguous as to what is acceptable in another culture. We invade countries where our economic interests are at stake and we are willing to stand back and watch genocide take place. We are horrified but being horrified enables us to live with our complicity in a crime.
Seneca - 'We are mad, not only individually, but nationally. We check manslaughter and isolated murders; but what of war and the much vaunted crime of slaughtering whole peoples?'

Well hell I don't know how to say shit in any other language but my own either but pretty much if it looks like it and stinks like it I don't need to run it in to be analyzed to recognize it. They may not have it on the law books in other cultures. They may not call it the same thing. Regardless, forcing yourself on someone who doesn't want you is wrong period. And I don't think "we in the west" have cornered the market on common sense and good law enforcement.
For the record ladies I've heard from on the subject state that they lose their sex drive and skip periods while under high stress.

Whilst all of this is a digression from the central line of the thread, I would like to point out that there are some seriously crossed wires here. Two perceptions of the world that are so far apart that they might come from different planets, and whilst they will probably dominate the history of politics and warfare in the 21st century, are not in their broader implications within the remit of this forum.

Before I refocus on the original theme of thread however, may I draw to hunters attention that “ wrong period “ is a moral judgement, completely separate from what is matter of law, save in those countries where religious beliefs effectively are the law.

May I also ask him to reflect on how he would recognize, by his criteria, crucifixion, breaking on the wheel, amputation of limbs , burning at the stake, electrocution,death by hanging,and public flogging, as legal or right punishments; OR bigamy, polyandry,homosexuality, bestiality, sodomy, and S&M practices between consenting adults in private and not involving lasting damage ( aka the spanner trial in the uk), on the legal/illegal, right wrong axis. All of the first group have at one time or place been considered legal, whilst all of the latter illegal. As a final example just think on how we humans, have wavered back and forth as to the youngest age at which sexual intercourse, or marriage can be considered legal.


Hunters last point does bring us back on thread, which Top -rock initiated in order to share with us the conclusions of an article in the May issue of the online magazine Discovery, it can be read for free at this address. n.b. you do have to register as a subscriber and a member ( both free ), but do NOT need to become a Magazine subscriber

http://www.discover.com/issues/may-0...ures/featlove/



and is very interesting. I have been studying it and have some further ideas and points , which are potentially quite relevant to our community, which I will address in another post as a reply to TOP-ROCK's original one

[ edit 1.45pm gmt :and which, after spending over an hour preparing and writing, I have just deleted by pressing the wrong' by our lady' key!!!!FFFFF. i'll start after lunch and a beer; no not the latter i'd go to sleep!]

[Hunter]

I've been waiting for the tag team to target me. LOL. I'm undecided if you and ProjectEuropa are just like minded and enjoy ganging up on others or if you're the same guy posting under 2 different names. Either way I was expecting to hear from you on this. Another thing I was expecting was that your reply would veer off into a pompass twist and not make a lot of sense in reference to what was said. I'll give you credit for not dissapointing me on either expectation. I would appreciate though that you refrain from trying to put words in my mouth (i.e., all that stuff about the law being right or wrong on crucifixion, etc.). I said "...common sense and good law enforcement". Now where in hell you got that "good" means completely without error I have no idea. When we have perfect people that think perfectly, we'll have perfect laws. But then we wouldn't need laws with perfect people running around now would we?

I still stand on my original thought that saying if a literal word doesn't exist in another culture then the concept and practice of it doesn't exist there either is at best silly. But if you want to go that way then I'd like to put in the first vote for removing words like "rape", "murder", "robbery", "drug overdose", "disease", etc. from my native language and in that way remove those practices from the culture I live in.

Before I refocus on the original theme of thread however, may I draw to hunters attention that “ wrong period “ is a moral judgement"

Sounds like you're saying that if I come upon you in an alley being forced by someone stronger than you to take a baseball bat up your ass that I should just back up and say well it's not against my morals so I'll just stand here and wish you luck with that. Now I tend to think most people would rather I use my common sense instead and say, "Hey that's just wrong period" and pull them off of you and maybe check to see if you're a willing participant or not. Key word being WILLING" since my "wrong period" was in reference to FORCING someone against their will. I assure you if you tell me you like it and it's not breaking any laws in my jurisdiction I'll let you get right back after it.

My apologies to the ladies for my crudeness in trying to get my thoughts across plainly enough. I guess I also did the nasty and went pretty far off topic as you put it here. Aw hell worse than that I got wordy so that's enough from me in this thread.

[Donatien]

I've been waiting for the tag team to target me. LOL. I'm undecided if you and ProjectEuropa are just like minded and enjoy ganging up on others or if you're the same guy posting under 2 different names. Either way I was expecting to hear from you on this. Another thing I was expecting was that your reply would veer off into a pompass twist and not make a lot of sense in reference to what was said. I'll give you credit for not dissapointing me on either expectation. I would appreciate though that you refrain from trying to put words in my mouth (i.e., all that stuff about the law being right or wrong on crucifixion, etc.). I said "...common sense and good law enforcement"......I still stand on my original thought that saying if a literal word doesn't exist in another culture then the concept and practice of it doesn't exist there either is at best silly. But if you want to go that way then I'd like to put in the first vote for removing words like "rape", "murder", "robbery", "drug overdose", "disease", etc. from my native language and in that way remove those practices from the culture I live in.

And to think that I had imagined the great John Wayne had died and gone to heaven.!

You are great also Hunter, honest, couragious, moral, defending the right, and speaking from the hip, so unlike us mealy mouthed pinkoliberal Europeans,with all their intellectual twaddle.

All that I was attempting to explain, was that "wrong period" was a moral judgement, and yet later you refer to " common sense and law enforcement"
adding up to three different ways of viewing Rape, when Project Europa considering it purely as legal entity. No I am not he, and I frequentlly disagree though not always saying so.

You are both correct, in that if rape as a crime didn't exist, legally there would be no rape; but you are correct in that the word rape could still be used as a description of nonconsenting sexual intercourse forced by a man on a woman, and it is probable that it would still qualify as a form of assault in law. However in some cultures it may be that, this is ,or was considered just normal human behaviour.

My point was mainly to do with your " wrong period". Perhaps I should just have made my post like this.

"wrong period" by whose authority? who says apart from you?


Instead I went on about a whole range of laws on punishments and social behaviour, in an attempt to demonstrate how difficult it is to come up with clear unequivocal answers that stand up to the sort of questions that I posed to you.( especially that one on age of consent).

I hope that I have been clearer this time round and that you don't turn to your lady with "Another load of....( I'll leave you to finish that sentence; your vocabulary is probably richer than mine) ".

Please forgive us Europeans always making things complicated by tortuous arguments. The Greeks taught us 2500 years ago and we are still doing it

[erotic_nibbles]

.....so unlike us mealy mouthed pinkoliberal Europeans,with all their intellectual twaddle.

I hope that I have been clearer this time round and that you don't turn to your lady with "Another load of....( I'll leave you to finish that sentence; your vocabulary is probably richer than mine) ".

All right....I know Hunter well enough to say that he won't post here again, since that's what he said ....but I am going to reply to this...Hunter is a big boy and can stand up for himself but I will say that not once did he call Europeans pinkoliberals, etc

And quite frankly you stepped in it with me and I don't care if it gets me in trouble to say as much

Now I haven't been anything but nice to you Donatien and you know it....in the chat room the one time we talked you even thanked me right before you left for "drawing you out" into the room and chatting.....which I did at some effort to make sure you were included in the room chat......so I do NOT appreciate you saying....."that you don't turn to your lady with "Another load of..."....Hunter may be my Dom but he doesn't tell me how to think and right now I think you went too far in that and am highly insulted that you dragged me into this in such a fashion.....as if you are trying to insult Hunter by using me to get to him......I'm hurt that you did that and I've lost all regard for you ....and if anyone wants to be mad at me for my posting my honest feelings on this then fine

Oh and one other thing since I'm fighting mad....maybe people should consider stepping into this century and voicing their own opinions rather than dragging up historic dead people all the time claiming they would agree with them...sheesh

Now I'm going to get off my soapbox and take a note from Hunter and not reply here again

~~nibbles~~

P.S. To TG....well you said I should be more controversial on the board and voice my honest opinions....So there it is and now I'm going to go be sick from being this upset

[ProjectEuropa]

I've been waiting for the tag team to target me. LOL. I'm undecided if you and ProjectEuropa are just like minded and enjoy ganging up on others or if you're the same guy posting under 2 different names.

I still stand on my original thought that saying if a literal word doesn't exist in another culture then the concept and practice of it doesn't exist there either is at best silly.

Wooh! I've just got back from a trip to the US and it seems I am a part of a controversy. All I can say is that I am not Donatien and I am not aware of any ganging up on anyone.

Without wanting to put oil on the fire, I stand by my assertion that crimes are culturally defined and how a criminal act is defined and labelled can make profound differences in the perception of the same act from one culture to another. Almost to the point of the same act being almost unrecognizeable between cultures. Rape is a provocative crime to use as an example but rape was part of the discussion and like any other crime rape still has to be defined for us to recognise it.

There is a culture that straddles NW China and Mongolia where what we in the west would call abduction and rape is how a male finds a female partner. From what I understand the act is not ritualistic but very real and the culture does not perceive the act as abduction and rape.

Enough said.

[slavelucy]

As you can all see, i've split this discussion off from the thread in which it started. i think it's a fascinating discussion with some interesting intellectual points being made, but one that i believe is best served in it's own thread.

Please feel free to contribute further to the discussion (peacefully!).

sl

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Rape, like any other crime, is cultural. If a society does not have a sexual crime defined as what we in the west describe as rape, then rape does not exist.

Perhaps, but so is driving on the right side of the road. I'm against any nation forcing their policies and politics on another nation. But I also don't want to have to watch the road ahead of me for oncoming traffic, because we've decided not to infringe our laws on another culture and have decided to cater to the Brits and Jamaicans that want to drive on the left.

In one of the original posts that started this whole mess, I believe the island nation in question was a British Commonwealth Territory. If that's the case, then cultural or not, the kidnapping and raping of women is illegal and the people that did it should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of Crown law. (Unless this thread isn't bleed-over from the thread that I'm thinking about.)