Lest we forget

[Thorne]

You still haven't answered why anybody would convert to christianity to begin with. Why and what could they gain from it?

I haven't the slightest idea why anyone would voluntarily convert to ANY religion. It is my view that all religions only perpetuate superstition, of one form or another. Most people are born into a religious group, the same group their parents where born into. This was the case with myself, but I stepped away from it.

People will join church groups, for social reasons primarily I think, and therefore enter into the religion promulgated by that church. Many of these groups perform good and honerable services to their community. But the propaganda which accompanies those services is pervasive.

And of course, there's always the "convert or die" method of recruiting new members. That's always filled the churches in the past. "God told them to" may not be valid, but "that soldier with the nasty sword told me to" will convert thousands!

[TomOfSweden]

I haven't the slightest idea why anyone would voluntarily convert to ANY religion.

I do think it's important to understand though. Religious superstition still does a lot of damage. The subject interests me deeply.

It is my view that all religions only perpetuate superstition, of one form or another. Most people are born into a religious group, the same group their parents where born into. This was the case with myself, but I stepped away from it.

People will join church groups, for social reasons primarily I think, and therefore enter into the religion promulgated by that church. Many of these groups perform good and honerable services to their community. But the propaganda which accompanies those services is pervasive.

These are all nice reasons, but religions tend to make some remarkable claims. Believing things like that we go to heaven after we die isn't just superstition. That's standing all reason on it's head.

If that's all it takes to make people superstitious, then it should be super easy to get people off it? All we need is a scientific comunity club and having meetings where we read scientiffic reports together. Do you really think it's that simple?

Hmm... Maybe that's why Sweden is such an atheist country. We've had socialist comunity clubs for 140 years now where most workers got together in studygroups and studied science. I'm not kidding. It was organised by the unions. It's called ABF, (Arbetarnas Bildningsförbund, ie the workers education society). It's a theory. Anyhoo I'm just thinking aloud. The goal wasn't to get people off religion off-course but to get them more highly qualified jobs. It still may have worked.

And of course, there's always the "convert or die" method of recruiting new members. That's always filled the churches in the past. "God told them to" may not be valid, but "that soldier with the nasty sword told me to" will convert thousands!

Yeah, but that doesn't in the least explain how religion still can survive today in the West. We're suposed to be the educated ones.

[Thorne]

These are all nice reasons, but religions tend to make some remarkable claims. Believing things like that we go to heaven after we die isn't just superstition. That's standing all reason on it's head.

If that's all it takes to make people superstitious, then it should be super easy to get people off it? All we need is a scientific comunity club and having meetings where we read scientiffic reports together. Do you really think it's that simple?

First of all, I want to make sure we are differentiating between faith and religion. One can have faith in God, or Jesus, or Muhammad, or Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy, without becoming entangled in an organized, or even disorganized, religion. Faith is simply a belief in something. I would venture to say that a very large majority of people have some form of faith, even without religion.
Religion is the codification of people's beliefs, setting everything down so that all of the members of the religion believe the same things. (I realize that this is a simlplified definition, but it's no less valid.) My quarrel is not with people's faith but with the religions which try to exploit those beliefs.
I have seen many people, struggling to make ends meet, living paycheck to paycheck, but still willing to put that money in the collection plate every week while the preacher is riding around in fancy cars,wearing expensive clothing and telling his flock that if they DON'T put that money in the plate they're going to hell!
History is filled with stories of religious groups killing other religious groups for no other reason than their different beliefs. And it's still going on today, all over the world.
As far as education is concerned, that doesn't necessarily eliminate the need for faith. But I do think it tends to separate people from the religious groupies. I feel that those with a good education tend to be more tolerant of other's beliefs and less inclined to take the word of a smarmy guy in a $500 suit as gospel.
But the vast majority of people in this world are brought up from infancy being taught a specific belief system. Overcoming that upbringing is very difficult. And, as you say, the need to believe that there is some kind of afterlife, something beyond the mundane world we live in, will always draw people to some form of belief system.

[TomOfSweden]

My quarrel is not with people's faith but with the religions which try to exploit those beliefs.

I guess we're annoyed with different aspects of religion. I have a problem with adults clinging to childish notions of how the world functions.

People "exploiting" peoples faiths is just a natural development. Is NASA "exploiting" peoples belief in science that we can go to different worlds? Are the Greens "exploiting" that we believe in the global warming, (which finally last week got some serious proof backing it)?

We are social animals. We like doing things together and especially with people we have something in common with. If people believe in a supernatural god then they'll off-course like to hang out with others who share the idea. Off-course strong people are needed to hold them together. We can call them sect-leaders, popes, chairmen, doctors, proffessors or presidents. They all do the same thing but with different connotations but given power for different reasons.