Do you believe in miracles?

[Ozme52]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...

There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...



...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

[Ozme52]

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

My intent is not to argue the specifics per se. Just the concepts of science v. religion as manifested in the concept of miracles and down all the tangents that takes us... (hmmm did I just contradict myself? )

I'm spiritual but not "religious"... mostly because of the connection to organized religion that implies. But I will stand by my statement. Who gets to decide what is wicked?

All of your examples sends chills up our spines. Of course we all agree child-molesters and serial and other cold-blooded killers are evil and will be or should be punished both here on earth and by god...

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

Just pointing out the folly of general statements when arguing 'right and wrong'.

[Thorne]

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

A long time ago I posted somewhere about this very idea. ( I think it was here when Rabbit took over and changed some rules about posting stories containing underage characters.) I'm not going to do the research again, but my recollection is that here in the US there was a very large variation between states regarding age for marriage. In at least one state, I believe, a girl of 14 could marry without her parents consent, and in many states she could marry with their consent. In other states women under 21 had to have their parents consent. There was even one country, as I recall, which allowed girls as young as 9 years old to be given away in marriage (I'm not certain, but I think it was Afghanistan under the Taliban.)