No matter WHAT - the marines look after their own

[thir]

Dear Ian. There is a lot in what you say that I can understand. The situation seemed to be that a roadside bomb killed the friend of Marine Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, and he just lost it, telling his men to shoot first and ask question afterwards, which is why women, children and a cripple was killed along with other unarmed civilians. As I understand it, this is not a question of a marine saying 'what the heck, let's kill some civilians'. It is a crime of passion, as I see rage as passion, and he lost control.

Does this excuse it? No. Why not? Because if you do not react very frimly to that kind of thing, you loose control, and more and more atrocities will happen.

You mention road bombs. I have been considering that for some time, and logically I cannot see any difference between sidebombs, mines, other bombs, or drones. Can you?
It is war, and the idea is to kill your enemies. And both sides do it any way they can.

The militarily, train and expect their soldiers to go and kill while fighting for their country without a conscience. I do not think it right because of one stupid act for any soldier to be given a conscience for his actions on his return home.

Civilians should realise that the wars of today are not like they were in 1940s. It is not about we will fire at your lines and in half an hour you can fire you big guns back at us. Troops looking at the enemy from their trenches while waiting for the big push to attack. It is about insurgency and road side bombs and suicide bombers of both sexes and ages. It’s now a war of nerves, and who can hold theirs the longest. For any person that doesn’t think that atrocities take place in modern warfare had better get in the real world because it is an everyday occurrence.

I think you are going right to the core of the matter here. Even in 1940 it wasn't just one line shooting at another, the bombs from planes killed civilians as well as soldiers.

I know it is silly, but to me marines just should be better than that! And they aren't, and they are getting away with it so it will only get worse.

I know it is unbelievablly stupid, but this morning I lost the last of illusions, ones I did not even know I had: there is no honor and no rules in war anymore. None.

[leo9]

You mention road bombs. I have been considering that for some time, and logically I cannot see any difference between sidebombs, mines, other bombs, or drones. Can you?
It is war, and the idea is to kill your enemies. And both sides do it any way they can.

Historically, regular troops have always been sensitive about guerillas: it's like they're not playing fair. Soldiers take casualties from guerilla traps much harder than the same losses to the other side's regular forces. And one of their common responses is to start slaughtering the locals, on the basis that some of them have probably been supporting the guerillas, so let's just kill them all and let God sort it out.

From the guerillas' point of view, this is an ideal response, since it greatly increases the general hostility to the invaders. Which is one reason, leaving aside all moral considerations, why intelligent commanders try to prevent abuse of civillians. Stupid commanders imagine that terrorising the locals will make them more co-operative. Historically, this rarely works.

[thir]

Historically, regular troops have always been sensitive about guerillas: it's like they're not playing fair. Soldiers take casualties from guerilla traps much harder than the same losses to the other side's regular forces. And one of their common responses is to start slaughtering the locals, on the basis that some of them have probably been supporting the guerillas, so let's just kill them all and let God sort it out.

I see the problem/

From the guerillas' point of view, this is an ideal response, since it greatly increases the general hostility to the invaders. Which is one reason, leaving aside all moral considerations, why intelligent commanders try to prevent abuse of civillians. Stupid commanders imagine that terrorising the locals will make them more co-operative. Historically, this rarely works.

No, the civilians only end up in the middle, as always.

[thir]

Please guys, do not get personal! Go after the ball, not the man.

This issue is important, at least I think so. Very important! So please do not wreck it.

Thank you in advance.

[IAN 2411]

Please guys, do not get personal! Go after the ball, not the man.

This issue is important, at least I think so. Very important! So please do not wreck it.

Thank you in advance.

You are so right, point taken

Be well Ian

[Ozme52]

Please guys, do not get personal! Go after the ball, not the man.

This issue is important, at least I think so. Very important! So please do not wreck it.

Thank you in advance.

Well, to the point, while I abhor civilian casualites, I recognize they are inevitable. And if you wish to try the marines who participated, I say do that, but only after you try all the Iraqii soldiers who perpetrated far worse against their neighbors' and their own civilians, after you try all the insurgents who use car bombs in civilian areas in order to harm said marines, and after you try all the leaders of all the representative parti, including religious leaders, for being beligerent and causing these conflicts.

Even then, I'd be hard pressed to naysay those who are doing there best to protect themselves as they carry out the wishes of said leaders.

[leo9]

Well, to the point, while I abhor civilian casualites, I recognize they are inevitable. And if you wish to try the marines who participated, I say do that, but only after you try all the Iraqii soldiers who perpetrated far worse against their neighbors' and their own civilians, after you try all the insurgents who use car bombs in civilian areas in order to harm said marines, and after you try all the leaders of all the representative parti, including religious leaders, for being beligerent and causing these conflicts.

Considering how our parents told us that "someone else was doing it" is no excuse, it's amazing how many adults use it.