Do you believe in miracles?

[ThisYouWillDo]

A rainbow is beautiful because we think it is beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you see a comet in the sky today you would, most likely, perceive it as beautiful, a "miracle" of nature. Yet in ancient, and perhaps not so ancient, times the comet was viewed with horror and fear as a harbinger of evil. The appearance of comets has not changed, only our perception of them, thanks to science!

And since the soul is an artifact of religion science must remain soul-less. That is science's purpose, to cast light on the darkness and drag us out of the depths of superstition. That does not mean it destroys beauty. On the contrary: to my mind, knowing why something is what it is or how it does what it does is just as beautiful and satisfying to me as someone else's "soulful" observations.

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

[Thorne]

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

Refraction happens because light travels at different speeds through different media. If you want to know why THAT is then I suggest you take a course in optics.
As for the uncaused cause, I have no idea what you're talking about.
And I never said I don't think a rainbow is beautiful. On the contrary, I think they are quite amazing. As for why you think they are beautiful, it's probably because you were taught that they are. Beauty is a subjective matter, primarily. And it changes all the time. What we find beautiful today may be viewed as vulgar 10 or 20 years from now.
True, some beauty lasts for a long time. Music especially is enduring. Yet even that is subjective. Many people find opera to be exquisite, food for the soul. To me it is no better than fingernails scraping across a chalkboard. I enjoy the music! But you can keep the singing.
And the same can hold true for belief systems. Most people tend to believe what they were taught to believe. And they hold to those beliefs because they are comfortable, uncomplicated. Questioning them requires an effort which many people are not willing to put forth. Yes, some turn to other belief systems, some turn away from all of them completely. It is all subjective, different for everyone. And in that diversity there is true beauty.

[Thorne]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Voodoo_Child
A beautiful and thoughtful statement of your beliefs. I applaud you for your sincerity, and my sympathies for your aunt.
Yet within your post lies the central reasons for my lack of faith. I cannot permit myself to believe in a God who would take the life of a young mother and wife while allowing evil people to live, and to live in relative luxury. I cannot tolerate a God who would force millions of people who love and fear him to labor in poverty and filth while hypocritical thieves rob them of what little they can salvage and live lives of privilege and wealth. What God deserving of that love could allow innocent children to be raped, abuse, murdered, while those who perform that abuse go unpunished. And how can any God force all of humanity to pay for the sin of just two people. This is not a God who is worthy of my love. If he truly does exist he is worthy only of contempt.

Thank you for the kind words. There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

"Farther Along"

Tempted and tried we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long
While there are others living about us
Never molested though in the wrong

[Chorus]
Farther along we'll know all about it
Farther along we'll understand why
Cheer up my brother live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by

When death has come and taken our loved ones
It leaves our home so lonely and drear
And then do we wonder why others prosper
Living so wicked year after year

[Repeat Chorus]

When we see Jesus coming in glory
When he comes down from his home in the sky
Then we shall meet him in that bright mansion
We'll understand it all by and by

[Repeat Chorus]
Yeah we'll understand it all by and by

[Ozme52]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...

There seems to be no end to the evil that people are capable of, but it is my belief that the wicked will not go unpunished. I think torment in hell for eternity is worse than any prison sentence we could impose, though I'm not opposed to hurrying wrongdoers on their merry way. *eg* If I chose not to believe in God, then I would also have to believe that there would be no justice in the end. It's a miserable thought. Anyway, your view point reminds me of an old song, which still doesn't explain why bad things happen to good people....

...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red (can we still call you Red?)

The problem with this statement...



...is "Who defines wicked?"

The "people" who brought you the concept of hell would say you are wicked. Sex outside of marriage, sex for pleasure instead of procreation, worshipping (by their defintion) another before God...

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

[Ozme52]

Of course you can still call me Red! I don't think you'd have a problem finding people who agree that child molesterers, serial killers and other cold-blooded killers, etc., are wicked. The gray area lies in intent. In some cultures, it's customary to chop off the hand of a thief. Is a person who steals food because he's starving the same as a person who steals for a living rather than work an honest job or simply because he's greedy? I don't think so, and I don't think God thinks so either. I wouldn't press charges against a hungry person who runs off with a bag of groceries, but I'd let my investment broker rot in prison for running off with my retirement fund. Yeah, I know I'm hardly a saint. *eg* I believe the term commonly used is "sinner." What's your point? I'm not perfect. I know it. You know it. God knows it.

Btw, I believe the concept of sex strictly for procreation is an invention of the Catholic church, not God. I'm not Catholic, so I don't buy into that nor do I fornicate only in the missionary position, which was supposedly the optimal position for conception. I also use birth control. In addition, I'm divorced, so anyone who fornicates with me is committing adultery. *GASP* I guess this means I'm on the highway to hell.

My intent is not to argue the specifics per se. Just the concepts of science v. religion as manifested in the concept of miracles and down all the tangents that takes us... (hmmm did I just contradict myself? )

I'm spiritual but not "religious"... mostly because of the connection to organized religion that implies. But I will stand by my statement. Who gets to decide what is wicked?

All of your examples sends chills up our spines. Of course we all agree child-molesters and serial and other cold-blooded killers are evil and will be or should be punished both here on earth and by god...

But wait!! Please define child-molester. Are all our British friends going to hell? They use a different age than we use in the USA. I'm not actually asking you to define it... Ancient Jews consider 13 to be the age of assent. And in many cultures girls became marriable upon menstruation.

Just pointing out the folly of general statements when arguing 'right and wrong'.

[Ozme52]

I shall wait for science to tell me why refraction happens (not just what happens when light is refracted). I shall also wait for science to discover what the uncaused cause was and why it is/was the uncaused cause. Finally, I shall wait for science to tell me why I think a rainbow is beautiful while Thorne (possibly) does not.

I shall not hold my breath.

TYWD.

Science does tell us why refraction happens. That 'white' light is a combination of many wavelengths. That each wave length refracts (bends) as it passes through boundaries between different media by different amounts and thereby gets separated.

I too wonder what you mean by uncaused cause? Whatever you mean, you obfuscate it by choosing to used this entirely uninspired oxymoron.

You think the rainbow is beautiful because you have been taught by all who come before you saying it is beautiful. And because we like color. And if you ask why we like color, it's because food comes in colors. Sex has colors, (red lips, pink skin, brown, blue, green eyes, etc.) Animal furs, which keep us warm come in colors. Flowers which have attractant odors come in colors.

Any argument between religion and science is going to send us to our respective corners. Even those of us who believe in God but that God set the world in motion with some pretty nifty mechanisms so he wouldn't have to micromanage it all (like evolution!!! on no!!! gasp!!! ) are going to line up on the side of science and argue against those who would rather leave it to God than understand the world he actually did create for us. (Not naming names here, just describing the attitude that befuddles me.)

---------------------------------------------

Now... as far as the actual question of miracles is concerned... again, we humans seem to like thinking God cares about us in detail. But if you actually read your bible... the real miracles involve a lot of death and destruction and suffering.

Did God part the Red Sea? Saved the Hebrews? or did he really just want to teach Pharoh a lesson and use it to trap and drown Pharoh's army. Killed Pharoh's first born son and all the first born sons of Egypt. Then let the Hebrews wander the desert for a lifetime rather than just show them the way....

Burned Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground and turned Lot's wife to salt for having a quick peek. Nasty entity God is.

Destroyed the world with a flood. Why bother to save Noah and his family? Only takes 7 days to create the universe and 40 days to flood our planet. Why not start over? Or is he just a practicle joker. "Hi Noah, I want you to muck out all these stalls for the next 8 weeks."

Make a mistake, go to hell. Gotta be perfect to get to heaven. And God's representatives, priests and ministers and bishops and popes and rabbis all have different sets of rules and even change those rules all the time. Can't eat meat on Fridays... I wonder what all those souls in hell are thinking now?

Y'all put too much faith in the writings of men who themselves believe God spoke through them. Today we call that insane. Either that or we're putting all that faith in men who merely claimed God spoke to them and today we call that type charletons, scoundrals, and thieves.

We'd be better off if we didn't preach to others and insist everyone believe the same way. Every person should be left alone to find their own spirituality.