Impeachment?

[Sir_Russell]

well Oz at least when your wrong your consistant about it. We spent plenty on clinton's impeachment for what now with so much more on the line its time to what play nice. I actually thought you had a better grasp of history and responsibility.

[Ozme52]

well Oz at least when your wrong your consistant about it. We spent plenty on clinton's impeachment for what now with so much more on the line its time to what play nice.

Yep. That was a waste of effort too. Clinton's impeachment was totally political.

I actually thought you had a better grasp of history and responsibility.

I don't deny that what Bush and Cheney have done is reprehensible. I HATE what they've done to our international reputation. Instead of us being the guy who watches out for injustice, we're the bully. I don't like it at all.

I'm just not sure that anything they've done could be called illegal and that's the point I'm making. You don't think if they had broken the law the Democratic majority in both houses wouldn't have acted? But regardless of criminality, it still makes good press.

My main point has been that you can't talk about things like reversing the Patriot Act... it was passed by congress, not by Bush/Cheney. He didn't go to war illegally, congress voted for it. Yes, the information was in error. Can anyone prove congress was purposely misled? NO. If you could prove it congress would have impeached immediately... and at the very least, reversed the war vote. You can only "prove" that after-the-fact, it was incredibly and stupidly wrong.

No, and on the contrary, they repeatedly vote to extend and send more troops. They certainly must have information that we don't have access to that implies it was the right thing to do.

I guess I'm trying to narrowly argue the topic. The war (and a host of related activities with regard to the Patriot Act) are way too broad to handle as a single subject. I just don't think an impeachment is going to do us any good... presuming you could even find him/them guilty of anything.

[mkemse]

Yep. That was a waste of effort too. Clinton's impeachment was totally political.




I don't deny that what Bush and Cheney have done is reprehensible. I HATE what they've done to our international reputation. Instead of us being the guy who watches out for injustice, we're the bully. I don't like it at all.

I'm just not sure that anything they've done could be called illegal and that's the point I'm making. You don't think if they had broken the law the Democratic majority in both houses wouldn't have acted? But regardless of criminality, it still makes good press.

My main point has been that you can't talk about things like reversing the Patriot Act... it was passed by congress, not by Bush/Cheney. He didn't go to war illegally, congress voted for it. Yes, the information was in error. Can anyone prove congress was purposely misled? NO. If you could prove it congress would have impeached immediately... and at the very least, reversed the war vote. You can only "prove" that after-the-fact, it was incredibly and stupidly wrong.

Yes but at thetime of the Patriot Act and Approving FUnds for Iraq everyone knows he had a blank check withthe Republican Controlled Congress, it was always rubber stamped to his satifaction, when the Repbulicans controlled both houses Bush got ANYTHING he wanted regardless of cost, when he asked forbills to be passedthere where controversal at best if not illegal, HIS Repblican Congress gave him what hewanted, Since the Democrats took oover his rubberstamd is gon,e and even Nancy Peolis and Harrd Reid said of his 3.5 i believei t was Trillion Dollar budget for next year, both said it will not even be looked at minus a few things it willnot be voted on, In Novemeber of 2006 the American People Mandated a Change in Washington puttig the Democrats in charge,m the only problem now is that the Democrats in the House even with a Controlling interst do not havea big enough majority (1 vote) to over ride Bushes veto's
Thing will change in November afterthe ekection, I will not take side on that, but unless something miraclous happens in then ext 10 months after 8 years of Bush, I do not believe the American Electoratewill give ANY Republican another 4 years in the White House, granted who ever goes there may not be much better then Bush, but nobody in the world could be worse them him

No, and on the contrary, they repeatedly vote to extend and send more troops. They certainly must have information that we don't have access to that implies it was the right thing to do.

I guess I'm trying to narrowly argue the topic. The war (and a host of related activities with regard to the Patriot Act) are way too broad to handle as a single subject. I just don't think an impeachment is going to do us any good... presuming you could even find him/them guilty of anything.

Among other things, the U.S. Declaration of Independence is a lengthy bill of particulars against the "abuses and usurpations" of King George III. If the revolutionary founders had had their own government, Jefferson would have used his writing skills to frame an impeachment bill. Among the "abuses" T.J. cited was the King's refusal to "Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good." If the colonists were riled enough over taxes on stamps and tea to shake the world with revolution, what will their inheritors do with the "usurpations" of our present Chief Executive? As Jefferson wrote, "Let facts be submitted to a candid world":

1. He lied us into war in Iraq. According to the U.S. media-ignored British "Downing Street Memo," he "fixed" intelligence around a pre-determined policy of preemptive war. Results: 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths; about 1800 U.S. soldiers dead in two wars, 100s of thousands wounded and traumatized.

2. Under his watch, the U.S. suffered its worst terrorist attack on its soil. He opposed an official investigation, then stalled for months on testifying before a hand-picked committee. Finally testified behind closed doors.

3. He was "elected" under dubious circumstances in 2000.

4. He was "elected" under dubious circumstances in 2004.

5. He has approved (and his Attorney General Gonzales has re-defined) torture at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram and elsewhere, while simultaneously opposing the International Criminal Court established to check such abuses. According to Amnesty International, the United States has established a Soviet-style "gulag" of torture around the world.

6. He failed to support the Kyoto Protocols, reducing greenhouse gases, but worked to open up Alaska's ANWR to drilling-despoiling an eco-system and increasing greenhouse gases.

7. He chose Halliburton toady Dick Cheney to be his running mate-twice.

8. He has attempted to pack the courts with ideologue-judges intent on overthrowing Roe v. Wade, and institutionalizing the police-state abuses of Patriot Acts I and II.

9.His "No Child Left Behind" education policies have replaced learning with testing and allowed military recruiters access to our schools, cajoling our children with military options before their minds have had a chance to open, question and challenge.

10.He is attempting to dismantle the Social Security system that has ensured "peace and freedom" for tens of millions of working Americans for seven decades ("peace" of mind and "freedom" from economic crises)-- rights hard-won by Labor and Progressives in decades-long struggles.

11. He has allied himself with Right-wing ideologues to curtail or abolish stem-cell research vital to the conquest of debilitating and fatal diseases.

12. He has failed to develop a coherent energy policy-except to prosecute wars for other peoples' resources. He fails to acknowledge the reality and impending disasters of Global Warming.

13. He has continued the Globalization project of his predecessors: outsourcing jobs, hollowing our middle class.

14. He has undermined the legitimate protective protocols of the C.I.A., politicizing the agency, awarding positions on the basis of ideological orthodoxy rather than merit and astute analysis.

15. He has subjugated his Administration to Neocon ideologues like Richard Perle, William Kristol and Douglas Feith; men who have endorsed the "settlement," expansionist and Wall-them-in policies of Ariel Sharon, sowing the seeds of anti-Arab racism, war and destruction in the Middle East for generations to come.

16. In spite of his rhetoric about freedom and democracy, he has allied himself with dictators in Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Egypt and elsewhere. He has increased the flow of arms to these states and others, fomenting instability, turmoil and war.

17. He chose Rumsfeld as DoD Secretary twice, in spite of Rumsfeld's obvious failure to adequately plan for the post-Saddam era in Iraq, inducing massive "collateral damage," the looting of ancient treasures, and infrastructure destruction in a country we were legally and morally bound to rehabilitate.

18. He endorses the weaponization of space, "Rods from Gods," and other exotic, Star-Wars technologies to establish a twenty-first century American global empire that is doomed to create an arms race with China and other opposing coalitions, sowing discord and wasting the resources of the world.

19. He has presided over the most egregious media consolidation in the nation's history. While we have had "yellow journalism" and other media abuses throughout our two centuries of Republic/Empire, we have never suffered the consolidation of power that we have today. He has presided over the emasculation and cowering of PBS, while his disinformation troops have peddled fraudulent stories and comments to "reporters" like Judith Miller, Armstrong Williams and Jeff Guckert-"Gannon," poisoning the well of information, adding to the general confusion and Goebbelsization of our news.

20. He lied about, misled, or misunderstood the astronomical costs of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. He continues to do so, diverting tax money for education, health care, the EPA, transportation and social infrastructure into war-making and destruction.

21. He has continued and enlarged the depraved Clinton policy of using depleted uranium on the battlefield; a policy bound to cause massive suffering and death to Americans and others for generations to come.

22. He has alienated our traditional allies and more than a billion Muslims around the world. He has ransacked the good will extended to the nation after the 9/11 attacks, leading a crusade of vengeance and reprisal, most often against innocents, judging without sufficient evidence, arrogating to himself a crooked, self-righteous Texas sheriff's power to execute without justice.

23. Under his watch, millions more Americans have been added to the ranks of the uninsured while health-care costs have exploded. His answer to these and other pressing social problems appears to be faith-based charities-in other words, preaching to the choir while stealing from the pews.

24. Under his watch, the North Koreans have, apparently, developed eight nuclear weapons and Israel has continued to increase and refine its arsenal-now estimated as high as five hundred.

25. He has murdered the English language.

sorry but these are the only 25 i could come up with

[ThisYouWillDo]

25. He has murdered the English language.

Now that's really funny!

[mkemse]

Now that's really funny!

as well as 4.300+ Soldiers